Do you believe in God?

[steve25805 126,159]

2 hours ago, 2prnot2p said:

The answer is millions!  Yes, millions of people believe in the god of the bible.  I've known many who do.  There is a reason that it's called "The Bible Belt."  If you ask some, they will tell you that they actually believe in the bible literally.  They're called fundamentalists.  The Baptist denomination is a fundamentalist faction and it is the largest christian church in the southern USA. 

So, trust me, millions of folks believe that a man walked on water, turned water into wine, and rose from the dead.  They believe in the great flood and Jonah living in the belly of a whale for three days too.  I know, it's nuts, but they do!  I've met tons of them. 

I have always believed that fundamentalist Christians are delusional and utterly divorced from reality.

Having read the bible myself I simply cannot believe much of what is in it to be literally true.

And it is highly contradictory at points, and thus impossible to believe because it involves believing in totally contradictory things all at the same time.

I once invited a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses in for a chat, and had them performing intellectual somersaults, frantically consulting their bibles and going off to consult with their church "elders" as I discussed with them the flood. I mentioned the limited gene pool resulting from just one male and one female of each species to procreate, and bowled such googlies as "when the Ark came to rest atop mount Ararat, how did a pair of kangaroos get all the way from there to Australia across land and sea?" And "how did a pair of jaguars make it all the way to South America?" Such impossibilities had never crossed their minds, which is itself demonstrative of how self delusional blind faith in the ridiculous is.

One of them gave the game away by questioning why I was hung up on such rational concerns instead of simply dismissing them and assuming god to be all powerful and capable of making anything possible without us having to think about it. Which kind of demonstrates the contempt fundamentalists - which Jehovah's Witnesses are - have for rational thought, wilfully deluding themselves by their reluctance to think rationally where it contradicts faith, and elevating faith and the words in an ancient book above rational thought.

[steve25805 126,159]

3 hours ago, Brutus said:

I believe in higher forces, that may or may not be "God" as we know it. I think it's practical to believe in higher powers than yourself, and foolish to be of the mindset of "there's no proof, so I don't believe." My mindset is:  absence of proof is not proof of absence. So when scientists try their damnedest to argue against God or any super natural unseen forces beyond our tangible perception, I listen to their points but still the fact remains that they, nor anyone can say with 100% absolute certainty that there is nothing beyond. To me that's incredibly arrogant. Until someone dies and comes back to life months later with a report, I don't care about the counter arguments for more than pondering. I am not saying that I know there is a God, but I'm not going to pretend to know the entire scope of the world we see with our eyes is all there is in existence. I operate on the assumption that sure it's possible and may even be likely. Now I don't think it's the stereotypical bearded guy in the clouds, as atheists like to mock. I think of him/it as a life force that could take infinite forms that are far beyond anything human intellect can fathom. 

Some people are so dependent upon scientific facts as their be all end all, but I think faith of any form is important for the human mind. All scientific facts started out as someone's belief and they set out to prove it. But had it not been a belief first, there never would've been a drive to pursue the hypothesis down to a provable fact. So the lack of proof about anything supernatural, deities, could simply be a result of us not YET having been able to prove it, just as current facts were once nothing more than faith in something that seemed provable to someone. It's easy to understand when you think of like this:

"I will pass the math test with 100%." You don't know that to be fact, but you have belief and faith that you will and that drives you to study and make it happen. When thought of like this, everyone can agree that faith itself is not foolish. So I say, that faith in something that hasn't been undoubtedly disproved is not foolish. One last thing that makes me believe in something beyond is human suffering at the hands of people that goes unpunished. If someone gets away with murdering children for example, and lives a full life never caught and brought to justice, I believe that there are forces this person will not escape when they leave here. And those same forces comforted and loved the violated souls of the innocents that met a horrific tragic demise.

Extremely well put. That is pretty much what I believe. You have found better words for saying it than I might have.

[Audrey81 3,027]

Nope I do not. I find my own meaning in life and that's about it

[steve25805 126,159]

3 hours ago, peeingone said:

but the same Sun can also destroy the whole solar system if it turned into a Red Giant Star. 

As it indeed will in the distant future.

Certainly, from our human perspective, material things like the Sun can seem dualistic, but that is just us putting what is good or bad for us onto them. As physical, non sentient, things, they just ARE. In the same way that animals are not dualistic because they act only on instinct (though this assumption is itself debateable with some higher mammals), so non-living things should not be seen as dualistic because they simply conform to fundamental laws of physics.

We humans are undoubtedly dualistic. But I believe there are bad spiritual entities - demons - with no discernible good qualities at all. And I believe the Gods @spywareonya and I believe in are inherently good, if stern.

So like Nancy, when it comes to spiritual entities, I accept the possibility that some could be dualistic as we are to some extent. Some for example are highly evolved human souls that no longer incarnate in human form. Some spirits might simply be sentient ghosts with the characteristics - good and bad - of the deceased person they used to be.

But many are truly bad or truly good.

But that is just a personal opinion. You yourself might well be right. Who am I to say otherwise? When discussing matters of personal faith, it is always better to do so from a position of humility unless you can demonstrate proof.

 

[2prnot2p 1,066]

23 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

I have always believed that fundamentalist Christians are delusional and utterly divorced from reality.

I couldn't have said better myself, Steve.  I agree completely with you.

 

 

[2prnot2p 1,066]

Back in 1987, we had a plane crash on take-off here at our main Detroit airport.  All 155 or so were  killed except a 4-year-old girl.  She was the only survivor. 

People went on and on about how god performed a miracle in sparing this little girl.  My reply was, "What about the other 155 poor victims?!  If god saved her, then he literally killed the others, or allowed them to be killed."  Oh, they don't want to hear that.  It's all nonsense!

Things like that almost prove that there is no good, personal, intervening god.  A radio host here in Detroit once said, "Go take a tour of Children's Hospital and then explain your god to me."

I can't argue with that stance.  Right on target.

Edited May 3, 2019 by 2prnot2p

[spywareonya 37,962]

12 hours ago, 2prnot2p said:

The answer is millions!  Yes, millions of people believe in the god of the bible.  I've known many who do.  There is a reason that it's called "The Bible Belt."  If you ask some, they will tell you that they actually believe in the bible literally.  They're called fundamentalists.  The Baptist denomination is a fundamentalist faction and it is the largest christian church in the southern USA. 

So, trust me, millions of folks believe that a man walked on water, turned water into wine, and rose from the dead.  They believe in the great flood and Jonah living in the belly of a whale for three days too.  I know, it's nuts, but they do!  I've met tons of them. 

Ok, I understand… but if you

 

Drug them

Beat them till near unconscious

Electrocute them

Hypnotize them

 

and then ask

 

...they will tell you they "love to believe", but are not sure of anything

Upon doing the same to me, I would babble about what I actually saw during rituals, explainable only through the scientifical explanations I got about the supernatural (or better said, about the 5% of it I believe to be scientifically explanable)

 

A human "believes" only what he would never deny, not even if hypnotized and made oblivious to everything through sensorial deprivation

Nobody believes in anything

 

Unless they saw some strange events which can be explained only through the hypothetical presence of a living being (not allseeing, nor allmighty) made of quantistic energy, and thus able to move objects like me and you, a living being just different from us, yet not at all un-scientifical

 

I do not care what people claim to believe

Only upon near Death people discover what their unconscious holds: which is absolute lack of convincing spiritual experiences

 

I was referring to that when I said nobody believes in the classical God

Because to believe, the human brain needs proof, unless it just mean he LOVES TO BELIEVE and this is a hormonal pull that must be respected, yet has nothing to do with faith

I have faith because I saw unexplainable things and then sneaked into Dangerous circles to get scientifical explainations of what I saw

 

There are also humans whose "potential faith" is worthy anyway and less irrational than what I previously described:

@Brutus explaination is perfect: his mind sees the universe with unfogged eyes and adfirms it MAY exist something similar to a divinity, and that it may even be likely for it to exist

This is the first step, and then people explore, like he does, like @steve25805 does, like I do myself, and update their opinions according to reflections, new scientifical informations, and the like of that

Edited May 3, 2019 by spywareonya

[Peefreak99 3,722]

Hmm i believe in a higher power and that theres something out there but what that "something" is idk 

[spywareonya 37,962]

9 hours ago, 2prnot2p said:

Back in 1987, we had a plane crash on take-off here at our main Detroit airport.  All 155 or so were  killed except a 4-year-old girl.  She was the only survivor. 

People went on and on about how god performed a miracle in sparing this little girl.  My reply was, "What about the other 155 poor victims?!  If god saved her, then he literally killed the others, or allowed them to be killed."  Oh, they don't want to hear that.  It's all nonsense!

Things like that almost prove that there is no good, personal, intervening god.  A radio host here in Detroit once said, "Go take a tour of Children's Hospital and then explain your god to me."

I can't argue with that stance.  Right on target.

Indeed this is the problem with people interpretation of God

A PARENT

To us Witches, Gods are just older cousins

Not everywhere, not allmighty, not allseeing

 

 

I am starting to believe that rather hating what is Beyond rationality, you hate people's attitude toward it, which could be a much milder starting ground for the two of us to start conversations

[likesToLick 10,216]

60 years of life so far,  and in that time I have not seen one tiny shred of evidence for the existence of a god, life force, creator or anything you could possibly describe as God.

Many have tried to convince me otherwise, but none of them could show me any evidence either.

I have no reason to believe, so I don't.

I'm sure that a great many people receive a great deal of comfort from basking at the warm fire of faith,  but my life is lived in the bleak uncertainty of reason.

I can do no other.

[2prnot2p 1,066]

On 5/3/2019 at 11:45 AM, likesToLick said:

60 years of life so far,  and in that time I have not seen one tiny shred of evidence for the existence of a god, life force, creator or anything you could possibly describe as God.

Many have tried to convince me otherwise, but none of them could show me any evidence either.

I have no reason to believe, so I don't.

I'm sure that a great many people receive a great deal of comfort from basking at the warm fire of faith,  but my life is lived in the bleak uncertainty of reason.

I can do no other.

Give this man a cigar!  This is, by far, the most intelligent thing I have read on this website since I joined!  Wow!  Someone who thinks like me!  Fantastic.

@likesToLick , If I could buy you a drink, I would.  Bravo!  😃

[spywareonya 37,962]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 5:45 PM, likesToLick said:

I can do no other

Maybe explore the potential explaination quantum physics offer about what the soul could theorically be?

And join the ranks of those that understood that

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 5:45 PM, likesToLick said:

reason

is not reason unless it utilizes everything humans know to compute what can be real or can be not

 

People just do not know enough, and call their not-knowing absence of

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 5:45 PM, likesToLick said:

one tiny shred of evidence for the existence of a god, life force, creator or anything you could possibly describe as God

 

 

Basing one's viewpoint upon what we know, illusing ourselves that what we know is all that there is to be known, THAT is irrational faith: faith in the idea that all we do not know doesn't exist

 

Don't take that personal my friend, we had marvellous chats elsewhere and it will not stop, but I am "using" (not in the sense of instrumentalize, but in the sense of catching a chance) your post to state one important thing:

 

People (and some of those posting here more than everybody else) consider "science" the pathetical school-level knowledge of science displayed by internet "debunkers", while I had contacts with world-class scientists in the previous years, all serenely agnostic, but in possess of countless possible explainations of what theorical divinities (and our souls just as much) would be, upon existing

These doesn't prove at all that they DO exist: but those explainations are SO easy and possible, that something SO POSSIBLE is very likely to be real, almost for sure in the computations of probabilities

Edited May 5, 2019 by spywareonya

[likesToLick 10,216]

5 hours ago, spywareonya said:

Basing one's viewpoint upon what we know, illusing ourselves that what we know is all that there is to be known, THAT is irrational faith:

We can be glad that reason and science do not do that,  but freely admit that our knowledge is not complete.

5 hours ago, spywareonya said:

Don't take that personal my friend, we had marvellous chats elsewhere and it will not stop

Absolutely.  I admire the way you treat everyone with respect, regardless of their viewpoint. 

5 hours ago, spywareonya said:

People just do not know enough,

True,  but using this lack of knowledge to declare an unlikely fantasy to be true is a logical fallacy.  It even has a name: "God of the gaps".

You can summarise it as "Everything we don't understand yet, happened because God did it."

Thus,  some people used to believe that the sound of thunder was "Mighty god Thor, forging metal with his mighty hammer in his great workshop in the sky."  Many centuries had to pass before Boyle, Newton, Faraday and others gave us an understanding of the thermal properties of gases, fluid dynamics and electricity that produced an exact understanding of why lightning happens and why that makes the sound of thunder.

Not knowing what causes thunder was a gap in knowledge that the imaginary god Thor lived in.  Now that gap is gone, and so is the myth.

[spywareonya 37,962]

12 minutes ago, likesToLick said:

using this lack of knowledge to declare an unlikely fantasy to be true is a logical fallacy

Oooooh I did NOT do this, my friend

 

I just

5 hours ago, spywareonya said:

had contacts with world-class scientists in the previous years, all serenely agnostic, but in possess of countless possible explainations of what theorical divinities (and our souls just as much) would be, upon existing

These doesn't prove at all that they DO exist: but those explainations are SO easy and possible, that something SO POSSIBLE is very likely to be real, almost for sure in the computations of probabilities

 

 

It's that nobody got my same infos, and never even asked me to divulge them, like they were afraid I may even be right

 

I am not even sure I would divulge them upon asked, I am not sure I could get away with that, those people REMEMBER who posed them some clear and neat questions and I fear for me to be recognized as Nancy Spywareonya, but it's cool nobody asked, I would have been forced to step down and get labeled a coward (oh yes I am scared, but not to be debunked as having not the infos I claim, I would be much more afraid of possible identification)

 

 

I am stating scientists told me the soul, if it existed, has some impossibly simple scientifical explainations, and Gods more or less exist for sure, and nobody even CHALLENGED me to reveal what I know

 

Peculiar, isn't it?

[likesToLick 10,216]

32 minutes ago, spywareonya said:

I am stating scientists told me the soul, if it existed, has some impossibly simple scientifical explainations, and Gods more or less exist for sure, and nobody even CHALLENGED me to reveal what I know

I have heard some scientific speculation on these kinds of ideas,  but I have not heard of anyone devising an experiment to test these hypotheses. 

A hypothesis is fine,  but it does not become knowledge until it is tested in a valid way.

On a slightly similar subject, there are some scientists that do good work in their specialised fields,  and yet believe in established religions that are profoundly anti-science and anti-reason in many ways.   It's as if they have found a way to switch off the reasoning part of their brain when thinking about religious things,  and quarantine the two types of thought from each other.

Just to be clear,  in my opinion,  faith is the enemy of reason,  and the two concepts are opposite to each other.

[Admin 14,791]

Whilst I have no issues with people believing whatever they like and whatever gives them comfort (providing it's not forced upon others),  I do not believe in any God.

It is not that I am close-minded - if someone presents me with any evidence, I would gladly consider it. 

But my starting point could never be blind belief when there's no proof, otherwise where do you draw the line about what else to believe in without any evidence?

Whereas the big bang theory and evolution do have scientific evidence to support them, so seem the more logical choice to me if looking for an answer of how we got here.

There's a great line from Ricky Gervais on this, when someone asked him "how can you not believe in a god?" - He answers that there are about 3,000 different Gods, and that most people don't believe in 2,999 of them, and he just doesn't believe in 1 more than them.

And it's true that people do just pick one of the many gods to believe in that sounds best to them or that the people around them believe in (usually chosen by their family / birth location).

I understand why though, it's a reassuring thought. But honestly I don't think not believing is as bleak as everyone makes out - it makes me want to enjoy life more and live it to its fullest, rather than spending time on religion preying that there's an afterlife that will be better. You don't need god to be a good person. In fact, I believe religion can cause a lot more problems than it solves. Certainly if there is a god, it must be quite sadistic to allow/cause all the injustices of the world. What benefit is there for not stopping babies being born with severe illnesses when they've done nothing wrong? 

Having said all that, I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe, especially as none of us can know for sure. If your belief has a positive impact on your life, I'm all for it. 

I'm just explaining why to me, I follow evidence, not emotions. I 100% accept there could be a god, but belief is not "something that could be true", it's defined as "an acceptance that something exists or is true". 

I think it's good to have these discussions in a friendly way though - it's interesting to see other peoples perspectives. 

[Sophie 24,413]

Admin pretty much summed it up perfectly for me. I don't think I could have said it better myself. I don't believe in god just like I don't believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the easter bunny. There's no evidence to support his existence, and while people grow out of the others I mentioned, God stays.  If he is this all seeing all knowing being, why do so many bad things happen to those who worship him? How many people have died at a church, or going to church. Where was their god then? The lovely old lady who has been to church every Sunday for 80 years gets hit by a bus, where was her god? 

People are quick to label anything they can't explain as an act of God. God supposedly created the world, science is proving that wrong. Science has evidence to support these things.  It's like me saying i have an invisible pink elephant sat behind me. I can't prove it, but it's there, you just don't believe in it! 

I'm not religious at all, I wasn't even married in a church. But if you are, that's great. You do you. 

[F.W 5,734]

The concept of an all powerful omnipotent being,probably was one of mankinds earliest concepts,once we became a social group living species,with the ability to not only speak,but generate a concept of tomorrow,next week,next month.To work out the phases of the moon,to understand the migrations of animals,like the plains Indians,who knew that every year for a few weeks,they could hunt Bison,and have enough resources to last them until NEXT year.

Probably they would have imagined such omnipotent beings,in order to rationalise where the animals they saw and hunted originated.Many of the cave paintings are thought to be of iconic meanings,as if by painting animals,then such animals would be possessed in spirit and become more abundant.

As we humans evolved,then such beliefs diversified.Probably most tribal groupings had its own interpretations,overtime becoming more diverse.Many ancient peoples like the Romans,Egyptians,had many Gods,one for this and one for that.Evolving into the major religions of the world,like Buddhism,Hinduism,Islam,Catholicism etc.As we developed into a more urban,educated people we began to see the need for such almost "fairy tale" beings as irrelevant.But it can be said that religion has also been a force for evil.Not only with the onset of militant Islam in the 20th century,but even in the past,wars have been fought over religion,the many regional wars of Europe over the 15th and 16th centuries,like the 30 years war,even the Spanish Armada were all Catholic vs various other protestant religions.

Yet most people do like to believe that just perhaps,we DO have a kind of kindly overseer.Someone watching over our shoulder.

But yes,evidence is lacking of any kindly being.A God who allows millions of his chosen people to be murdered in WW2,must have been on long term sick or something.Theres a lot of explaining AWAY of God,people say,"Oh well,God moves in mysterious ways".He sure does.I can only think of ONE instance where God showed his "power",is where he parted the Red Sea,so the Israelites and Moses could escape the pursuing Egyptians.

[Brutus 2,206]

11 hours ago, Admin said:

I understand why though, it's a reassuring thought. But honestly I don't think not believing is as bleak as everyone makes out - it makes me want to enjoy life more and live it to its fullest, rather than spending time on religion preying that there's an afterlife that will be better. You don't need god to be a good person. In fact, I believe religion can cause a lot more problems than it solves. Certainly if there is a god, it must be quite sadistic to allow/cause all the injustices of the world. What benefit is there for not stopping babies being born with severe illnesses when they've done nothing wrong? 

Having said all that, I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe, especially as none of us can know for sure. If your belief has a positive impact on your life, I'm all for it. 

I'm just explaining why to me, I follow evidence, not emotions. I 100% accept there could be a god, but belief is not "something that could be true", it's defined as "an acceptance that something exists or is true". 

I think it's good to have these discussions in a friendly way though - it's interesting to see other peoples perspectives. 

I don't think not believing is bleak, but rather a different view that has merit. As far as religion causing more problems than it solves, sure that's possible, and the same could be said of guns, politics and certain economic systems. The problem I see with religion is that they are just speculation at the end of the day, nothing more. Incorrect speculation can coexist with what it speaks of. Just look at politics, everyone has an opinion, and almost none of them are 100% correct. I am not religious and I don't believe it is required to believe in God or anything supernatural. The Bible itself is full of contradictions. As far as allowing injustices that we see, it is valid to question how that fits together and is one reason why my view of God has evolved into something very complex that most religious people wouldn't entertain. Again I am not claiming that he does exist, because I don't know. But say he does for a moment. Our limited understanding of the world, in relation to what God allows to happen, can be akin to how a child cannot understand their parents rules. Now I am not saying that atrocities are in our best interest like parents controlling kids, but my point is just because we can't get our heads around it doesn't disprove existence. A deity that can exist beyond physical bounds certainly may not view human suffering the way we do, same as a parent would not view a tantrum crying child as more than annoying, but the child feels immense discomfort. Again, my point is that unexplainable doesn't mean lack of existence. As you said, sadistic, as is the world in which we live. It makes sense for something sadistic to birth a sadistic creation, i.e. humans. The bible, flawed as it may be, describes God as having created man in his image. So since man is flawed, perhaps God makes mistakes as well. Maybe he feels pain at human suffering. Maybe realization of his own flaws is why he is said to forgive sins. I don't know, I'm just presenting food for thought. There's no rule that gods are free of error. People may impose that onto their ideal of God, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

With regard to your comment about evidence versus emotions, that seems to diminish the value of human emotion. Emotion is as real and valid as blood and presents itself in everyday life in all of us in everything we do, from those we love down to what music we like or hate. But I don't consider my open ended belief to be emotional, but rather pragmatic. That being that anything is possible, especially when considering happenings after death, which is something we have no experience with. That brings my next point. The reason God is such a divisive thing that will never cease debate in us is that as humans, we are burdened with realization of impending death and it's frightening if you think about it long enough. Saying show me proof doesn't really apply here because it is a request to apply a method grounded in our experience of life, to an after death experience, so the request can never be filled. Imagine if there was proof, then what? Imagine how terrified we'd all be, our lives would be nothing but fear of not pissing him off, so lack of proof is better, as it allows us free will while thinking, "maybe, just maybe." Then it's up to you. I don't think believing is a sign of being a dumbass, which is the vibe I feel from atheists more often than not, at least the militant ones.

The word "belief" may be defined as acceptance of truth, but realistically, no one uses the word belief as a synonym for truth or fact. We implicitly understand belief as perception, nothing more. 

So my belief is atypical and remains aware that God may in fact not exist, but that also means that he could be real, and exist in forms that aren't commonly imagined. I just choose to not rule it out and choose to believe by default in higher powers, like creatures that could exist on planets we've never been on. I don't deny science, that's idiotic. I just believe there is room for both without clash. To anyone that doesn't believe, cool. It's obvious that many here are disgusted by believers, so I tried to throw a little butter on this rough bread of a debate and maybe we could all lighten up a bit. Some people seem personally offended by the mere question of God and there's no need.

 

 

[likesToLick 10,216]

12 hours ago, Admin said:

But honestly I don't think not believing is as bleak as everyone makes out - it makes me want to enjoy life more and live it to its fullest, rather than spending time on religion preying that there's an afterlife that will be better.

That makes sense,  but I would still contend that being an atheist requires greater strength of character than being religious.

It is obviously much more comforting to believe that everything in the world is exactly how it was meant to be,  that everything has a purpose, and that we have an invisible loving parent who will always take care of us and protect us from harm.

I can remember that feeling,  because I once had real loving parents who cared for me very much,  taught me about things that I didn't know, and protected me from a lot of bad things.  Now I am big and ugly enough to take care of myself, and my parents are no longer alive, but I still miss them,  and miss that feeling of unconditional love very much.  It's easy to see how someone less fortunate or less strong could be very willing to believe in tales of an invisible father in the sky.

So yes,  it is tough to stand on your own feet,  and sometimes bleak,  but you have the right idea.  Play the cards that life has dealt to you.  There won't be another deal,  and there won't be another game after this one ends.  As you say,  live life to the fullest and enjoy.

 

 

[likesToLick 10,216]

6 minutes ago, Brutus said:

Some people seem personally offended by the mere question of God and there's no need.

Believe me ( 😉 ) there is a need.   Many religious people are constantly trying to jam their ignorant, bigoted opinions down the throats of everyone else.

They have recently passed a law that will impose pointless unnecessary expense on this very forum!

They decapitate people,  they bomb and murder their neighbors,  they murder doctors at family planning clinics,  they ban the provision of medical aid to people who don't agree with their prejudices,  they fight to prevent people having access to contraception,  they impose vile laws on sex workers that expose them to danger, extortion and make their lives a misery, they oppose scientific research,  they oppose life-saving medical procedures and operations.  The list goes on and on.

I personally would like to see a law that states that religious activity is only permitted between consenting adults in private.

[Brutus 2,206]

20 minutes ago, likesToLick said:

Believe me ( 😉 ) there is a need.   Many religious people are constantly trying to jam their ignorant, bigoted opinions down the throats of everyone else.

They have recently passed a law that will impose pointless unnecessary expense on this very forum!

They decapitate people,  they bomb and murder their neighbors,  they murder doctors at family planning clinics,  they ban the provision of medical aid to people who don't agree with their prejudices,  they fight to prevent people having access to contraception,  they impose vile laws on sex workers that expose them to danger, extortion and make their lives a misery, they oppose scientific research,  they oppose life-saving medical procedures and operations.  The list goes on and on.

I personally would like to see a law that states that religious activity is only permitted between consenting adults in private.

I meant on this forum. But yes religion has been used for great evil, but that's because of human nature, religion is just the excuse. They'd just as easily say "science proves those people have low IQ so now we have reason to execute them all from existence." Human beings are capable of great evil, regardless of the reasons we choose to be evil. The censorship and attack on free speech that is sweeping the west right now by way of sjw's, is politically driven. That has nothing to do with religion. In fact, sjw's are usually atheist. Not saying atheists are evil, just using the extreme left to illustrate that human beings are good at finding any reasons for evil. If you took religion away, they'd dream up new reasons by dawn.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Brutus

[likesToLick 10,216]

2 minutes ago, Brutus said:

sjw's

I find this term offensive.  Just saying.

[Brutus 2,206]

7 minutes ago, likesToLick said:

I find this term offensive.  Just saying.

Apologies.

[Admin 14,791]

8 hours ago, Brutus said:

The word "belief" may be defined as acceptance of truth, but realistically, no one uses the word belief as a synonym for truth or fact. We implicitly understand belief as perception, nothing more. 

So my belief is atypical and remains aware that God may in fact not exist, but that also means that he could be real, and exist in forms that aren't commonly imagined. I just choose to not rule it out and choose to believe by default in higher powers, like creatures that could exist on planets we've never been on. I don't deny science, that's idiotic. I just believe there is room for both without clash. To anyone that doesn't believe, cool. It's obvious that many here are disgusted by believers, so I tried to throw a little butter on this rough bread of a debate and maybe we could all lighten up a bit. Some people seem personally offended by the mere question of God and there's no need.

I won't have chance to reply to everything (and since we have both already explained our views I doubt it would add much anyway), so I just wanted to focus on this last bit.

I certainly am not disgusted or look down on believers such as yourself, so apologies if that came across - I actually fully understand and respect what you said. I don't think any rational person could have contempt for your view. In fact, our views are notably similar: we both acknowledge there may or may not be a god, and that if there is it's unlikely to be in the typical form (i.e. a man with a beard sat in the clouds watching down). 

I agree the word believe isn't always used completely literally, but you can't really be neutral on what you believe - you either do think something is true, or you don't. We can surely agree it doesn't mean 'maybe it's possible', as otherwise we'd all believe in almost everything. If you believe, you're saying you think there probably is.

The difference is solely that your default position is to believe and say there probably is a god, whereas I am saying based on there being no evidence to support it and enough scientific proof to contradict it, chances are there isn't. I am not ruling anything out either, but after looking at both options, I've come to the conclusion that it's more likely there isn't one. 

It would be arrogant for anyone to definitively claim there 100% is or isn't a god though. And I think this is why both sides can get so fired up. 

But it's not that I am saying 'show me proof', I am just acknowledging that the god debate is one of the few where logical people will decide that proof isn't needed.  Sophie's pink elephant example might seem facetious, but in all seriousness I struggle to see how someone can completely dismiss that, and yet be convinced of god, when the basic principle is the same.

And I do get what you mean about the mocking atheist vibe... but this is because everyone who believes in god is often put in that same category, as often it's the more extreme believers who are the most vocal. Can you really blame atheists for mocking people who dedicate their lives to an old fictional book and believe every single word of it, that god created the world in 7 days etc, and then try to push that on other people? Because as noted earlier, millions do. If all believers had a similar stance to you, I certainly don't think there'd be the same level of conflict between atheists and believers. 

In my experience though, it is normally believers who are trying to convince others of a god, and then atheists will explain why they don't believe. I have never seen anyone on the streets telling people they shouldn't believe. Whereas, your post suggests atheists in this thread have been aggressive towards believers, when it is just people stating their own opinions... if it's regarded as an attack on someone's beliefs/god just to acknowledge the flaws we perceive in the idea, how can there possibly be a debate? 

You say some people seem personally offended by the mere question of God, but from my perspective the case is far more often that people become offended once you point out holes in their argument or say that you are choosing factual evidence over faith. By very definition it's surely more rational to do that. It doesn't mean it's right though, and it certainly doesn't make one side better than the other, it's just a personal choice that everyone is entitled to. I think we will have to agree to disagree, but actually our stances are not that different, and I certainly have respect for you and how you explained your position. But hopefully you can accept mine too. Like you said, if someone doesn't believe, that's cool, but if they do that's cool too. It's a free choice, and this thread is more to just to express opinions than try to convince anyone otherwise. Hope my post didn't come across the wrong way.