The EU. In or out?

[steve25805 126,023]

Since there is a referendum on this issue in the UK very soon, I will pose this question.....

Should the UK leave the European Union, or remain a member?

All non-UK and even non-European opinions equally welcome, by the way. :)

On the economics I remain torn. I think we probably gain more than we lose by membership, but are perfectly capable of going it alone.

Employers' habit of exploiting freely available cheap labour from Eastern Europe to undercut pay here has been long having an economically detrimental impact upon our own working classes, though.

And the prospect of a populous country like Turkey joining - which is not only desperately poor but also predominantly muslim - threatens not only our cultural freedoms in the long run (including our ability to access pee porn) but also would reinforce massively the ability of employers' to use cheap migrant labour to further erode the pay of working people.

However, the EU has legislated into existence a whole heap of employment rights which we wouldn't otherwise have had. The then Tory government fought tooth and nail to deny us those same rights, but when Labour got in they signed up to them. As EU legislation incorporated into our own laws, we cannot unilaterlly abolish them, in spite of some on the right itching to do so.

The EU is thus the most effective guarantor of those rights at the moment, which is the deciding factor for me, and why I have reached the decision to vote to remain.

[Pete2304 36]

Ok so....

I studied economics up to A-level but pursued a degree in media so that's as far as my knowledge extends. My vote will be to stay. I have to accept that the international monetary funds report on the situation is without bias and as such, we have to stay. The UK economy is going to grow over the next ten years, regardless of EU membership. However, the level of that growth is (according to the IMF) likely to be around 12% less year on year should the UK leave the EU.

Obama was right in what he said that it would take years to renegotiate a trade deal because so many different parties involved would have conflicting interests and in the mean time, big businesses may look elsewhere than the UK. We will, I believe benefit in terms of exports we excell at, banking is one of them. For many small, niche companies it would be a good thing (but that's micro economics, local benefits) however the majority of big firms who have spoken out so far want to stay and as such I'm sure we will.

Even if we left the EU, our government will continue to donate money to humanitarian causes purely for the same reason that if you saw a man about to die of thirst in the street you'd spend a pound and buy him a bottle of water regardless of your feelings on why he was in that position.

We will also still accept a level of immigrants who are fleeing war torn countries, we have a big say on the numbers as it is, Cameron has been pretty firm on that, I think we've taken in something like 15 percent of the numbers of Syrian refugees as Germany has despite being similar sized countries.

I just hope we don't end up with a no vote because the huge numbers of casual racists in this country believe that the vote is about immigration.

And Egwalrus, this affects you mate. Even if it didn't no reason not to get involved but this will have an impact on any company in the states who exports to or imports from the UK. Therefore it has an impact on the budget, on employment decisions by certain companies etc etc.

[Pete2304 36]

It may not have an impact on your life on a personal level, the point was basically that it will affect a significant number of American companies and therefore on a personal level, employees of those companies and on a national level the economy as a whole.

If this something you don't care about or don't wish to express an opinion as you've said, why bother going to the trouble of writing a post to explain that you don't want to post anything? This is just a continuation of the argument from the Trump etc thread. I understand, you don't value opinions from people who reside outside of the country the thread is mostly about. I get the point. I would have thought though, you would be able to be a little less short sighted and realise that what happens in America doesn't just change things there and vice versa. Global markets and all that.

[Pete2304 36]

Well, of course you are entitled to express your opinion that you don't have an opinion but is it not time to just let this argument go? It's a chat forum. This section is here for people to chat about politics. If those at the very top level of politics refused to consider opinions or deal with anyone from outside of their own country, the world would be a very different place and not for the better. All that lovely money that flows into the States from exports wouldn't be there for a start.

Despite all the numerous views on all sorts of different topics the only point you keep making over and over again is that it's nothing to do with anyone outside of the country concerned. I think anyone who has read any of the politics threads over the last couple of weeks is aware that's how you feel. I've tried to engage you in numerous conversations politically without reply and that's fine, your choice, but how long does this pointless argument have to continue for?

[steve25805 126,023]

Guys, of course feel free to talk about what you want. That's what this part of the forum is for. There are few rules here.

But in my opinion it would be best if we actually discussed the topic rather than arguing about who should or shouldn't be voicing an opinion on it.

For those who don't want to express an opinion, there is nothing really to be gained by posting here and continuing to argue about it. And for those that do, let's get off the case of those that don't and leave them be. If anyone chooses not to express any opinion they may have for whatever reason, that is their right.

[Pete2304 36]

Continuing my comments? I have simply joined in on a thread that was started about whether or not Britain should leave the EU. I've made a few points about how I hope the vote should go, as have others. All you have done is post that you don't wish to post. I totally understand (as I've said must be ten times or more now) that I don't have an issue with your take on that but can the discussion not just be left alone if it's something you aren't interested in or feel you shouldn't have an input on.

If you knew me personally, you would know that I'm one of the most easy going people you could ever meet. My point all along has only ever been just let people chat, doesn't matter who agrees with who or who's opinion is more valid than another's, just let it be.

[steve25805 126,023]

Egwalrus doesnt want to express an opinion - iteslf an opinion he felt the need to express. This is his right of course.

But anyone else - of any nationality - is totally free to come here and express theirs if they wish.

[F.W 5,734]

OUT OUT OUT!!!!Why the hell SHOULD we stay in an undemocratic German led organisation.Im also fed up to the back teeth of being told how many of these "refugees" we will have to take BECAUSE we stay in the EU,as though thats a good reason to remain,that we import a few thousand more idle mouths.....The situation with the Syrians,and whoever else,plus a few hundred ISIS terrorists,is not the same as the German Jews before WW2.Those Jews were all educated peaceful people,doctors,lawyers,scientists teachers the such like,and coming from a civilised country,could integrate very simply.These "refugees" have very little education,or notion of civilisation,unfortunately for them.We dont need anymore people with no skills in the UK.Also we will save billions,it costs each person about £1 per day to be in the EU.

[F.W 5,734]

Ok so....

I studied economics up to A-level but pursued a degree in media so that's as far as my knowledge extends. My vote will be to stay. I have to accept that the international monetary funds report on the situation is without bias and as such, we have to stay. The UK economy is going to grow over the next ten years, regardless of EU membership. However, the level of that growth is (according to the IMF) likely to be around 12% less year on year should the UK leave the EU.

Obama was right in what he said that it would take years to renegotiate a trade deal because so many different parties involved would have conflicting interests and in the mean time, big businesses may look elsewhere than the UK. We will, I believe benefit in terms of exports we excell at, banking is one of them. For many small, niche companies it would be a good thing (but that's micro economics, local benefits) however the majority of big firms who have spoken out so far want to stay and as such I'm sure we will.

Even if we left the EU, our government will continue to donate money to humanitarian causes purely for the same reason that if you saw a man about to die of thirst in the street you'd spend a pound and buy him a bottle of water regardless of your feelings on why he was in that position.

We will also still accept a level of immigrants who are fleeing war torn countries, we have a big say on the numbers as it is, Cameron has been pretty firm on that, I think we've taken in something like 15 percent of the numbers of Syrian refugees as Germany has despite being similar sized countries.

I just hope we don't end up with a no vote because the huge numbers of casual racists in this country believe that the vote is about immigration.

And Egwalrus, this affects you mate. Even if it didn't no reason not to get involved but this will have an impact on any company in the states who exports to or imports from the UK. Therefore it has an impact on the budget, on employment decisions by certain companies etc etc.

Im sorry,with us leavers,the whole point of it IS immigration.Weve had enough of idle mouths,of people who may even wish us harm,just coming here,very few questions asked.Yes its all about immigration!

[steve25805 126,023]

Yes its all about immigration!

Not for me it isn't!

For me it is about making it as difficult as possible for your right wing chums to remove our long fought for employment rights.

[Pete2304 36]

Anyone who wishes to do us harm is fairly unlikely to be put off by the UK removing itself from the E.U. This is the point I made originally that far too many people who haven't taken one minute of time to look into what the vote is actually about are going to vote to leave. If, and I use this purely as an example, somebody of Syrian descent, presented themselves at Heathrow with a case for claiming asylum on humanitarian grounds, this country would still consider that application regardless of our status and an EU member.

There is a risk, albeit a minute one, that person may subsequently turn out to be a terrorist and commit a crime in this country. However if that is his or her mindset it matters not one jot if we are in the EU. As a country of on the whole, decent citizens we will always take in refugees if they are fleeing from a genuinely dire situation.

This issue is about every voter deciding whether or not they would prefer a stronger economy over the coming decade by staying in the EU or whether or not they would accept less growth of the economy but see that as a worthwhile trade off for a greater level of decision making without having to run abide by EU policies.

I can see both sides of the argument, just so long as people actually understand what the argument is about.

There will not be at any stage, a bunch of terrorist cell leaders sat round a table saying "well boys, if they vote to leave the EU, we can't plant a bomb in London anymore"

[Adyguy6970 877]

For a long time I was in the undecided camp, being three quarters out and one quarter in. However having listened carefully to all the arguments I've finally come down on the side of Brexit. Having listened to the arguments and read a very eloquent essay by someone on the other side, my GF has decided to stay with the 'in' camp. I think therefore our respective votes will cancel each other out. My boss is in a similar position. He's very much 'in' whilst his wife is decidedly 'out.' I suspect there will be more than a few British households where that's the case!

[Pete2304 36]

I absolutely agree with you that this is going to be a close call. For purely fiscal reasons (the country as a whole, not my own, I'm not rich enough for it to make a difference to me personally!) I'm going to be voting to stay.

However, there are some fairly compelling arguments to leave and I gave it some thought before I made my mind up, it wasn't an obvious decision.

I have wondered though, through all of this that if Cameron was campaigning to leave would Boris Johnson be in the other camp? In a small way, that partly helped make my mind up. I like Boris Johnson and as a chap with a haircut probably even crapper than his, I have to salute someone who has done so well in life with a mop on his head! However, in all seriousness, this is his shot at gaining enough credibility to be the next prime minister and I think that is possibly more of a driving force for him than his actual belief that the country would be better of, all things considered, out of the EU.

[likesToLick 10,216]

I'm in the curious position of being a British citizen who is not allowed to vote in this referendum, because I have lived in another country for a long time.

I can certainly understand Steve's concern about the clash of cultures and increasing unemployment if Turkey joins.

On the positive side, The EU has a much better record on civil rights than the USA or Australia, so any freedom-loving person would definitely be voting to stay in. While the Tories are working so hard to stamp on your faces, it's nice to know that Europe has your back.

For my own selfish reasons, I rather like the idea that my British passport lets me go to live and work in most European countries without any formality or fuss. I've never done it, but I would regret the loss of the freedom to do so.

And ... wouldn't you miss all those lovely Polish girls who like to come over for working holidays?

On the whole, I think my choice would be to stay in. Pity I can't vote.

[Pete2304 36]

Saw the case of the ex-pats who went all the way to the appeal courts in Brussels and ultimately lost. As far as they are concerned, I think was a case of too much spare time and money on their hands and was probably an idea discussed over a sangria or five one afternoon that really went a bit far.

I think, maybe it's right that you shouldn't be able to vote it you have chosen to live and/or work predominately outside of the country.

I am very happy about the fact that if I so chose, I can up sticks and move to anywhere inside the EU and in the past have done exactly that. I will be voting stay purely on the basis of my belief that the remain campaign has proven that the country as a whole will be better off financially that way.

The issue of Turkish migrants is something that needs consideration but, should we leave the EU politically, it doesn't suddenly mean we won't be still admitting refugees on humanitarian grounds or for that matter people who wish to migrate here to work be that temporarily or permanently.

[steve25805 126,023]

As the holder of a postal vote, I have already voted to remain, but it was a very close run decision because for me there are pros and cons with either decision. And I am having severe doubts about whether I made the right decision. I tend to view things from a working class, working man's perspective. I value my workers rights which I feel will be harder for a Tory government to dismantle whilst we remain in Europe, what with them being incorporated into EU law. This is what swung it for me.

But cheap migrant labour from Eastern Europe is undoubtedly being used to keep wages low, economically disadvantaging the working classes for the betterment of wealthier elements. Some of the statistics are indeed worrying. For example, 80% of new jobs in the last year went to people not born here, whilst well over a million of our indiginous population remain unemployed and struggle to find work.

The simple market rules of supply and demand cannot mean any other than that this vast influx of migrant workers are depressing working peoples' wages to a lower level than they would otherwise be at. Those same rules can also only mean increased demands for housing and other essential goods and services, pushing their costs up. Thus the inward migration of millions of people from poorer parts of Europe can only be holding working people's wages down whilst increasing their living costs. And the statistics bear this out. House prices and rents have doubled in the last 15 years, whilst working class wages have increased by barely a third.

Do the maths. We are gradually, via an excessive influx of migrant labour, being systematically impoverished, whilst affluent employers and property owners are laughing all the way to the bank.

Hence, I am having severe doubts about whether I actually did the right thing in voting to remain.

In view of these statistical facts, it is unsurprising that measurements of voting intentions seem to show a large majority of working class people intending to vote to leave, whilst it is more likely to be members of the affluent middle classes intending to vote to remain.

These facts also explain why substantial sections of what was once part of the solid Labour-supporting working class core vote are defecting in increasing numbers to UKIP. The left need an answer to the way cheap migrant labour is being systematically used to keep workers' pay down whilst also having the effect of increasing their living costs. Because if they don't, they will lose the working class vote to the populist right. And they don't have enough support amongst middle class voters to ever win an election without working class support too.

[steve25805 126,023]

For a long time I was in the undecided camp, being three quarters out and one quarter in. However having listened carefully to all the arguments I've finally come down on the side of Brexit. Having listened to the arguments and read a very eloquent essay by someone on the other side, my GF has decided to stay with the 'in' camp. I think therefore our respective votes will cancel each other out. My boss is in a similar position. He's very much 'in' whilst his wife is decidedly 'out.' I suspect there will be more than a few British households where that's the case!

My brother is voting "in" whilst his wife is voting "out". My mother is also voting "out". I think many families will be divided on this one, and in some ways I think it crosses political divides. There are both left wing and right wing reasons for leaving, just as there are both left wing and right wing reasons to remain.

[Pete2304 36]

Steve, everything you have said is completely correct and pretty much echoes my own thoughts and also the way I will be voting. I don't have a postal vote but will be voting remain but like you, I have spent some time mulling it over.

The issue I have had is that a lot of the working classes who will be voting to leave will be doing so for the wrong reasons, not really having any grasp of the issues at stake.

I must have a crystal ball because after the post I made about The Sun a couple of days ago, they have today come out as fully behind the leave campaign and I think it will make a difference.

Whilst there is an element of migrant labour having taken a lot of jobs in this country, I have also read and listened to the thoughts of people at the top level of large companies who say they simply cannot attract any interest from English people for the jobs they are advertising. I also read an interview in the Guardian (I think but not certain), with a lady who owned an orchard in the south west producing organic cider. She pays the full minimum wage and employs seasonal workers on six month contracts. She said this year, of the 40 pickers and packers jobs she advertised, she received four applicants from English people. She was very clear about the fact that were it not for her ability to employ migrant workers she would be out of business.

It is a very, very tough issue and whilst I had always intended to vote remain and will be doing so, I'm surprised at how much I've swayed from being absolutely certain to being only just sure I'm making the right choice.

[steve25805 126,023]

Steve, everything you have said is completely correct and pretty much echoes my own thoughts and also the way I will be voting. I don't have a postal vote but will be voting remain but like you, I have spent some time mulling it over.

The issue I have had is that a lot of the working classes who will be voting to leave will be doing so for the wrong reasons, not really having any grasp of the issues at stake.

I must have a crystal ball because after the post I made about The Sun a couple of days ago, they have today come out as fully behind the leave campaign and I think it will make a difference.

Whilst there is an element of migrant labour having taken a lot of jobs in this country, I have also read and listened to the thoughts of people at the top level of large companies who say they simply cannot attract any interest from English people for the jobs they are advertising. I also read an interview in the Guardian (I think but not certain), with a lady who owned an orchard in the south west producing organic cider. She pays the full minimum wage and employs seasonal workers on six month contracts. She said this year, of the 40 pickers and packers jobs she advertised, she received four applicants from English people. She was very clear about the fact that were it not for her ability to employ migrant workers she would be out of business.

It is a very, very tough issue and whilst I had always intended to vote remain and will be doing so, I'm surprised at how much I've swayed from being absolutely certain to being only just sure I'm making the right choice.

I hear this stuff about how locals won't do the work quite often. Minimum wage isn't really enough to live on anymore, which is part of the problem. In rural areas there are accessibility problems for those too poor to own and run their own transport. And a lot of these people who claim that they cant get locals to apply in reality don't want locals, they want migrant labour who won't complain if asked to work excessive hours, or forego a break to help reach deadlines. Often such employers make little effort to advertise locally and hire mostly from agencies who supply migrant labour. All of which of course ensures that such employers never have to pay more than minimum wage which is part of the problem.

Let me supply some facts on the ground from my own locale.

The cheapest taxi firm here doesn't even advertise jobs locally. Their boss travels to Eastern Europe personally and hires direct, then pays them pitiful rates of pay for such work, hence the cheaper prices, albeit with drivers who invariably have to rely on their passengers to give directions. No doubt other firms are having to restrain pay to compete.

Then, a few years ago was the case of the contractors paid to fit new kitchens into all the local social housing. There were five contractors in all, only one of whom employed local workers. The other four had workforces entirely made of of East Europeans on minimum wage, which is pitifully low pay for the type of work they were doing. One of these four had just gotten rid of all their local employees - thrown onto the dole queues - which was easy to do because they'd been hired via an agency. And they replaced them with workers from another agency supplying exclusively Romanian workers.

The local construction industry used to be very well paid by local standards. Even 15 years ago, pay in excess of £10 per hour, and more for skilled workers, was the norm. Today - in spite of 15 intervening years of price inflation - workers in the construction industry are lucky if they can get £8 an hour, with the majority of construction workers being East Europeans. Of course local rents have doubled in the same period with more people chasing a limited housing supply.

I am not faulting the migrants themselves. Most of them come here to work hard and are decent people. I talk to many of them in my job. But they are definitely being exploited in a way that economically disadvantages the indiginous working classes. And then to insult them by claiming that they don't want to work, well it is just the sort of thing that drives them into the arms of UKIP. Because in my experience, most employers who use the excuse that locals don't want the work to justify taking on migrant labour are either being disingenuous or else there are unspoken underlying reasons going unmentioned. For example. if any employer is an awful employer to work for because of bullying, dangerous working practices, or anything else, word gets around and the locals will tend to avoid that employer like the plague. Migrant labour is unlikely to be aware of such issues. So there is often more to such tales than the employer is telling.

But let's be clear. The migrant isnt the problem. Exploitation of the migrant to the detriment of all working people, combined with an insufficiency of investment in housing to accommodate the extra people, is the problem. But until or unless the left wakes up and recognises the reality of that problem and effectively addresses it, UKIP's message of blaming the migrant himself is going to be the only show in town. And therein lies the danger of the populist right capturing the working class vote.

[Pete2304 36]

You are absolutely correct. Also, sadly, even with the increased minimum wage, in many cases it even makes more sense to stay on benefits than take the work a lot of time. When you take out travel costs, lunches etc etc people can find themselves in a position where they can either sit at home all day, every day or do 200 hours a month for an extra £200. Now much as I believe people should work if they can, whenever they can, it would be something you'd have to consider if you were in that position. It isn't that (in most cases but not all), people don't want to work though I agree.

I think it's noticeable that the leave campaign has steered itself, certainly recently, away from a lot of the fiscal issues because I don't think, facts on paper, that's an argument they could win. Not to say they don't have valid arguments though.

For UKIP, this whole debate is like Christmas, Easter and all their birthdays rolled into one because come what may, they will rightly say that a massive percentage of the country has shown their desire to leave the EU and you are right many working class people have been driven into the arms of UKIP.

In terms of exploitation, there are clearly cases of that. Mr. Ashley being hauled before MPs last week is probably the biggest culprit. There are though, quite genuine cases of companies who are on the borderline of bankruptcy and still operating who cannot afford to pay more than the minimum wage who truly cannot attract interest from local people and not all these employers which take advantage of their employees, they just want to survive. No doubt the small businesses are the ones who would suffer first should we leave because of their lack of cash in the bank and therefore time to start re-negotiating deals and waiting for tax levels etc to be sorted out.

As it stands tonight it's 1/4 stay and 2/1 leave with the bookmakers but that is a different picture to the one we saw 12 months ago where you could have gotten yourself a bet to leave at 6/1 so the margins are closing and daily by the looks of the polls.

[steve25805 126,023]

You are absolutely correct. Also, sadly, even with the increased minimum wage, in many cases it even makes more sense to stay on benefits than take the work a lot of time. When you take out travel costs, lunches etc etc people can find themselves in a position where they can either sit at home all day, every day or do 200 hours a month for an extra £200. Now much as I believe people should work if they can, whenever they can, it would be something you'd have to consider if you were in that position. It isn't that (in most cases but not all), people don't want to work though I agree.

That's not really true anymore, what with welfare claimants being randomly persecuted with draconian sanctions by Daily Mail reading jobcentre staff who are often prejudiced against them and in consequence delight in every opportunity to make their lives difficult. We have cases of all benefits being stopped because people filled in the wrong forms when they were sent those wrong forms in the first place, or for being four minutes late for an appointment because their bus never turned up. They have been sanctioned for not attending meetings without having been told that the date of the meeting had been changed. People have been sanctioned for being ill with the flu or for attending the funerals of close relatives. There was even a case where someone had their benefits stopped for missing a jobcentre appointment because they were attending a job interview instead!! These are all real cases and I can find the links to some of them if necessary.

Anyone who imagines that a life on benefits is in any way secure doesn't know how working class people are treated by the system today. No one would choose to live that way if they have any choice. Benefits are pitiful - the big headline sums are mostly the result of housing benefit to cover extortionate rents, none of which of course goes to the tenant. And not only are benefit levels pitiful, they can be stopped altogether for weeks on end for the most unjust and pitiful of reasons by malicious bureuacrats full of contempt who get off on being cunts!!

Very few amongst the relatively affluent middle classes, and certainly not amongst our political and media elites, have a single clue what life is like for ordinary working class people today. We are no longer allowed a voice in politics. The country is now run wholly by and for the affluent middle classes. Those elements on the left who are sympathetic towards us, nevertheless only understand us through the lens of sociology studies and learned statistics. They will often quote them to explain away the reality of the problems caused to us by such issues as excessive exploitation of cheap migrant labour, without ever showing the slightest signs of ever actually had any experience of our communities themselves, who every day see all around us and suffer from the effects of those problems. Thus even the left - which once existed to champion the working classes and developed in the first place to send working class representatives to parliament - has now hopelessly lost touch with us. Some on the left - eg many New Labour types - have long grown accustomed to viewing us as mere ballot fodder and barely disguise their contempt for us at times.

[Pete2304 36]

Benefits are not always pitiful. The sanctions imposed, far too freely by people sat in an office who have no care whatsoever for the welfare of the person on the other end of the button they are clicking, are dreadful. In some cases, even fatal for the most vulnerable who have nowhere else to turn. Still, I have also seen first hand people who have suddenly become alcoholics or depressed and have worked the system to the point of being in a fairly comfortable position.

I myself had a dreadful experience with benefits two years ago. Having been diagnosed with cancer, I was asked to attend an interview to prove I was poorly. I was then told I would have to wait up to 8 weeks before any money was made available to me. They did backdate it all and sure enough I was paid allowances to cover both myself and my rent but had I gone into that period with not a penny in my pocket I honestly don't know how I would have survived.

[steve25805 126,023]

Oh I agree that there are those who work the system. I see them every day in my job too. But they mostly do so by getting themselves transferred over to sickness benefits where they are unlikely ever to be targetted by sanctions. And of course the existence of such people fuels a resentment that feeds a desire for indiscriminate toughness through which the innocent suffer too.

I do think that one of the things the left needs to do to win ground on the welfare issue is to get tough in a targetted way upon the leeches - and be seen to be doing so - without any of the scatter gun arbitrariness and cruelty inflicted upon the innocent. Because that's another issue that is big in working class communities. Whilst we know of people being unjustly and cruelly victimised by the welfare system, we also know about those who do take the piss, precisely because they live amongst us too. And it is natural to resent going to work, working hard, and paying taxes, just to see taxpayers' money being handed to the guy next door who stays at home playing his playstation all day. We often have a fairly good idea about who amongst is is a genuine case and who is just leeching. But in actual fact, the leechers are only a minority, because it has become much harder to get away with that indefinitely now. They are not nearly as typical of claimants as much of the media would have us believe.

[UnauthorisedGuy 510]

As an Aussie who visits the UK regularly, I've watched the debate with interest. I've found elements of the debate quite surreal and disconnected from reality. Sad as it might be, and despite what Boris Johnson and others say, Britain's empire is long gone. Those who advocated leaving the EU don't seem to get that, or appreciate that as a result, the UK is better off in the EU than out of it.

Anyway, the majority have voted to leave, so it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

[Pete2304 36]

For me it was a sad night. I watched with a growing sense of dismay as the reality started to dawn in the early hours of yesterday as to what we had done. Sadly, a lot of voters were not aware of the issues at stake and those sprouting casual rubbish about "all that money we give to the poor countires" etc etc will not give two hoots to the fact that more money was lost in the devaluation of the pound in 24 hours than we have given to the EU I'm the whole 24 years we have been a member.