Urethra angle and the pee angle of women.

[Ms. Tito 2,396]

On 8/11/2022 at 6:17 PM, Havelock said:

Just had a conversation with my wife about this topic. She's of asian descent and naturally pees forward in front of her feet. She says that she peed even more forward when she was young. She also told me that there is a funny cultural difference in thinking about forward streams. She said in the US, all these mom's of girls are annoyed/concerned when their daughters have forward streams because they pee over the front of potties/ western toilets and make in mess. Sometimes they even ask in mom groups if they should be taking their daughters to the doctor to see about the forward pee "problem." In many parts of Asia it's the opposite. It's considered fortuitous if a girl has a forward stream because it means they can squat and pee clear in front of their feet. Thus they are less likely to get their feet wet and make a mess of themselves. This is especially true in China where many children still wear open crotch pants and squat for the majority of their business. 

She also mentioned that you can see it in toilet designs. In Japan most squat toilets have hoods in the front to catch the forward stream. Chinese toilets are not as well designed and thus often end up with a mess with women having to more accurately position themselves over the hole/ trough. This can be a problem if you have to do more than pee because you may need your butt over the hole but that would put your stream landing in front of the trough unless you unnaturally angle forward. Thus it can be a tradeoff of what you are optimizing to hit. She also said that this is why many squat toilets don't work well for kids in China and it further reinforces just letting them go outside. She said school toilets and older public toilets in China are often long troughs and in this design a forward stream is no issue unless someone were to squat too close in front or behind you.

I wonder if women in  China would be receptive to the idea of standing to pee.

[Havelock 1,526]

14 hours ago, Ms. Tito said:

I wonder if women in  China would be receptive to the idea of standing to pee.

@Ms. Tito I asked my wife and she asked why they would stand? She said Asian people are very comfortable squatting and often squat when not peeing (just waiting, eating etc.) because it's comfortable. 

[Dr.P 1,473]

@Ms. Tito, My wife is from China, and  she is very much opposed to standing to pee, which she has had to do, in a few rare situations. She prefers to sit or squat. Since forward-directed streams seem to be more common, in Asian populations, it seems that squat toilets would be preferred.

[Havelock 1,526]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:36 PM, Dr.P said:

@Ms. Tito, My wife is from China, and  she is very much opposed to standing to pee, which she has had to do, in a few rare situations. She prefers to sit or squat. Since forward-directed streams seem to be more common, in Asian populations, it seems that squat toilets would be preferred.

@Dr.P Do you think your wife is more open squatting to pee / peeing outside because she is from China?  It's a small sample, but my wife and previous girlfriends who spent time growing up in Asia have seemed more accustomed to squatting and peeing in various places. 

[Dr.P 1,473]

7 hours ago, Havelock said:

@Dr.P Do you think your wife is more open squatting to pee / peeing outside because she is from China?  It's a small sample, but my wife and previous girlfriends who spent time growing up in Asia have seemed more accustomed to squatting and peeing in various places. 

My wife is not afraid to squat to pee outdoors, as many Western women seem to be, but she has been conditioned to use indoor, Western style facilities, over a lifetime. She has a profound dislike of dirty indoor facilities, and has had bad dreams about them, on many occasions.

[kitty and mimi 124]

 

On 10/13/2022 at 5:36 PM, Dr.P said:

On 10/13/2022 at 10:11 AM, Havelock said:

Asian people are very comfortable squatting and often squat when not peeing (just waiting, eating etc.) because it's comfortable. 

Since forward-directed streams seem to be more common, in Asian populations, it seems that squat toilets would be preferred.My wife is not afraid to squat to pee outdoors, but she has been conditioned to use indoor, Western style facilities, over a lifetime. She has a profound dislike of dirty indoor facilities, and has had bad dreams about them, on many occasions.

this is not entirely true, women in less developed Asian countries are more likely to prefer squat toilet than the women in more developed Asian countries. mature women in Asia are more likely to choose to squat to pee than younger women. younger women under 30 years old in developed Asian countries tend to prefer to sit down to pee on western toilet rather than squat to pee on squat toilet.

there was a survey in Singapore suggest that peeing while squatting is not preferred by most women in Singapore.the younger women in Singapore are even more likely to choose to sit down to pee instead of squatting. during the interview,Women who are above 30 years old are more likely to prefer squat toilet, or will adopt semi-squat position when peeing on western toilet. on the other hand,women who below 30 years old are more likely to prefer peeing  sitting down,more likely to worry about feet pain while squatting or pee on their own shoes, and  care less about dirty toilet seat,more willing to sit on the toilet seat to pee,less likely to hover .

read the articles below in Chinese:

https://guangming.com.my/坐廁省力不怕腳酸-‧新加坡女性不愛用蹲廁

google translation of the webpage:

https://guangming-com-my.translate.goog/坐廁省力不怕腳酸-‧新加坡女性不愛用蹲廁?_x_tr_sl=zh-CN&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

The survey was done in ladies rooms in shopping malls in Singapore in 2010.during weekend and holiday, there were long line in front of ladies room in shopping malls in Singapore,but the stalls that with squat toilet were almost always empty.

for example,the ladies room on the 3rd floor of Boon Lay Jurong Point Shopping Center have 20 stalls,16 of them with western toilets,4 of them with squat toilet. while there was a long line in front of the ladies room, the 4 stalls with squat toilet were empty most of time. the women prefer to wait for western toilet than go to squat toilet.

the interview also show that the younger the women are,the more likely they choose western toilet. for example,Li Xiaoen, a 17-year-old female student, said that squat toilet can make her feet burn. Even if the toilet is dirty, it is fine to wipe the seat before using it.also,Li Yingxiu, a 25-year-old female bank clerk, is reluctant to use the squat toilet for fear that she will pee her shoes.but the women above 30,tend to choose squat toilet because they believe that squatting toilets are the first choice for hygiene. The 30-year-old Kang Shiyun said that too many people have sat on the western toilet, and the problem of hygiene  make her really worrying. She will only use it unless there is no choice. Ms. HO pointed out that using the squat toilet does not require hover to pee, nor does it waste  toilet paper.

I think women who go to shopping malls tend to be younger than general population. the average age of women who go shopping and use the lady's room in shopping mall are under 30. this is the reason they choose to sit down to pee, and most stalls with squat toilet are empty most of time while there were long line in front of the lady's room.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by kitty and mimi

[Havelock 1,526]

22 hours ago, kitty and mimi said:

 

this is not entirely true, women in less developed Asian countries are more likely to prefer squat toilet than the women in more developed Asian countries. mature women in Asia are more likely to choose to squat to pee than younger women. younger women under 30 years old in developed Asian countries tend to prefer to sit down to pee on western toilet rather than squat to pee on squat toilet.

there was a survey in Singapore suggest that peeing while squatting is not preferred by most women in Singapore.the younger women in Singapore are even more likely to choose to sit down to pee instead of squatting. during the interview,Women who are above 30 years old are more likely to prefer squat toilet, or will adopt semi-squat position when peeing on western toilet. on the other hand,women who below 30 years old are more likely to prefer peeing  sitting down,more likely to worry about feet pain while squatting or pee on their own shoes, and  care less about dirty toilet seat,more willing to sit on the toilet seat to pee,less likely to hover .

read the articles below in Chinese:

https://guangming.com.my/坐廁省力不怕腳酸-‧新加坡女性不愛用蹲廁

google translation of the webpage:

https://guangming-com-my.translate.goog/坐廁省力不怕腳酸-‧新加坡女性不愛用蹲廁?_x_tr_sl=zh-CN&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

The survey was done in ladies rooms in shopping malls in Singapore in 2010.during weekend and holiday, there were long line in front of ladies room in shopping malls in Singapore,but the stalls that with squat toilet were almost always empty.

for example,the ladies room on the 3rd floor of Boon Lay Jurong Point Shopping Center have 20 stalls,16 of them with western toilets,4 of them with squat toilet. while there was a long line in front of the ladies room, the 4 stalls with squat toilet were empty most of time. the women prefer to wait for western toilet than go to squat toilet.

the interview also show that the younger the women are,the more likely they choose western toilet. for example,Li Xiaoen, a 17-year-old female student, said that squat toilet can make her feet burn. Even if the toilet is dirty, it is fine to wipe the seat before using it.also,Li Yingxiu, a 25-year-old female bank clerk, is reluctant to use the squat toilet for fear that she will pee her shoes.but the women above 30,tend to choose squat toilet because they believe that squatting toilets are the first choice for hygiene. The 30-year-old Kang Shiyun said that too many people have sat on the western toilet, and the problem of hygiene  make her really worrying. She will only use it unless there is no choice. Ms. HO pointed out that using the squat toilet does not require hover to pee, nor does it waste  toilet paper.

I think women who go to shopping malls tend to be younger than general population. the average age of women who go shopping and use the lady's room in shopping mall are under 30. this is the reason they choose to sit down to pee, and most stalls with squat toilet are empty most of time while there were long line in front of the lady's room.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@kitty and mimi This is unfortunate. It sounds like squatting may be going out of fashion with younger people in developed Asian countries. Its too bad this last area of natural squatting to pee is diminishing. I have a feeling this will also impact these women's practice in squatting to pee outdoors. It always felt like they were more willing to pee outdoors because they were already so used to squatting in the same position indoors. 

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 10/23/2022 at 10:36 PM, Havelock said:

It sounds like squatting may be going out of fashion with younger people in developed Asian countries. Its too bad this last area of natural squatting to pee is diminishing.

The situation in Singapore is similar to Hong Kong. those women who complain to the government about western toilets, or ask the govern build more squat toilets are older women.

I think that older women in developed Asian countries choose to squat to pee may not always be a good thing.

for example, a threat below is from a forum in Hong Kong:

https://ladies.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=11757405

(the threat is in Cantonese. better not use google translate. use Bing translate may be more accurate.)

one woman who discuss in the threat is a high school teacher in Hong Kong. because the lecturing time is so long, the break is very short. she is not allow to go to bathroom when she was lecturing her students. She got full bladder whenever lecturing end,when the break begin. toilet in the school are all western toilet, and are dirty. because the break is short, she cannot go outside to find squat toilet. she admit that every time  she pee in the school toilet, she just step on the western toilet and squat, even if when she was wearing high heel shoes. (bathroom for teachers is separated from bathroom for students in school in Hong Kong,so her female students will not know that.) I wonder  how her female students feel if they know that their teacher squat to pee on the western toilet while wearing high heels shoes. I think none of her female students will dare to try or can imagine. In school in  Hong Kong, the teachers bathroom for women seem to be more dirty than the students bathroom for girls. The women teachers are more used to squat to pee which make mess the toilet seat while this will less likely happen in student bathroom for girls because the girls students mostly sit.The younger they are,the less likely they will squat or hover. It will be difficult for a female teacher to share bathroom with her female students since the teacher is more used to squat to pee while her female students used to sit down to pee. I think average ages of women in education sector are a little older than those women who regularly go to shopping malls. Ages of female school teachers probably around 30 to 40. Ages of women who go to shopping mall regularly may be a little younger,probably around 20-30. This maybe the reason why those women who in women's room in shopping mall would more willing to sit down to pee than those who in female teachers bathroom.

I also remember there is a Facebook page from a Facebook account in Hong Kong,which criticize Hong Kong government.(the article now become private and not everyone can access to it. I think it is censored by Chinese government. ) The article was about the women bathroom inside the building of legislative council in Hong Kong.It said that the women's room inside the legislative building is very dirty. Also, there is a sign notice inside the women's room that ask the women  to sit down to urinate, not to squat or hover. But the women squat or hover anyway. Many women peed on the toilet seats, other just squat on the toilet and left footprint on the toilet seats.

I think the ages of legislative members in Hong Kong tend to be old, especially the female members. The youngest female legislative member would at least be 35 years old.The female members of the legislative council tend to be those who choose to urinate on squat toilet rather than western toilet.

although all of them are female bathrooms, the scenario inside the bathrooms are very different,if they are used by particular age group of females or in a environment of ages segregation. people inside the girls bathroom in school or women's room in shopping mall which are students or young women, are more likely to sit down to pee than those who inside female teacher's bathroom or the women bathroom in the legislative building such as female teachers or legislative members."Women" and "girls" became two different groups of people when it come to urination position in bathroom in Asian developed countries.gender segregation seem not be enough,as if ages segregation that separate girls and women may work. suppose such thing happen, bathroom signs will not just be "men" and "women". It may look like "guys","girls" and "women" . or it can be "sir/mister", "miss" and "madam/misses". Although this is unlikely happen officially but it tacitly enforced in some places. For example, during holiday inside ladies room in shopping mall or movie theater , the women who is inside tend to be young(tend to below 30) and more likely to sit down on the toilet,although there is no sign notice said something like "only young women are allow" nor said that "old women cannot come in". Also, some old bathroom building in some old temples or old parks have squat toilets only. young women usually not interested in such places. those women inside the ladies room tend to be mature(at least 30 years old,unless they bring their daughters)the women inside more likely are those who choose squat toilet, and more willing to squat then sit, although there is no sign notice said something like "girls are not allow to come in", or "you have to be 30 years old to come in".

if a older woman have full bladder in public, and she try to avoid western toilet. She will try to find a lady's room with squat toilet. after she found one, she most likely meet women in her age group inside bathroom because most women in that age group choose squat toilet. young women don't like squat toilet,so she probably will not see young women inside. similarly, a young women have full bladder in public, she try to find bathroom with western toilet. after she find one, she may likely to meet other women in her age group inside the bathroom, because other young women also choose western toilet while older women will not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by kitty and mimi

[Havelock 1,526]

17 hours ago, kitty and mimi said:

The situation in Singapore is similar to Hong Kong. those women who complain to the government about western toilets, or ask the govern build more squat toilets are older women.

I think that older women in developed Asian countries choose to squat to pee may not always be a good thing.

for example, a threat below is from a forum in Hong Kong:

https://ladies.discuss.com.hk/viewthread.php?tid=11757405

(the threat is in Cantonese. better not use google translate. use Bing translate may be more accurate.)

one woman who discuss in the threat is a high school teacher in Hong Kong. because the lecturing time is so long, the break is very short. she is not allow to go to bathroom when she was lecturing her students. She got full bladder whenever lecturing end,when the break begin. toilet in the school are all western toilet, and are dirty. because the break is short, she cannot go outside to find squat toilet. she admit that every time  she pee in the school toilet, she just step on the western toilet and squat, even if when she was wearing high heel shoes. (bathroom for teachers is separated from bathroom for students in school in Hong Kong,so her female students will not know that.) I wonder  how her female students feel if they know that their teacher squat to pee on the western toilet while wearing high heels shoes. I think none of her female students will dare to try or can imagine. In school in  Hong Kong, the teachers bathroom for women seem to be more dirty than the students bathroom for girls. The women teachers are more used to squat to pee which make mess the toilet seat while this will less likely happen in student bathroom for girls because the girls students mostly sit.The younger they are,the less likely they will squat or hover. It will be difficult for a female teacher to share bathroom with her female students since the teacher is more used to squat to pee while her female students used to sit down to pee. I think average ages of women in education sector are a little older than those women who regularly go to shopping malls. Ages of female school teachers probably around 30 to 40. Ages of women who go to shopping mall regularly may be a little younger,probably around 20-30. This maybe the reason why those women who in women's room in shopping mall would more willing to sit down to pee than those who in female teachers bathroom.

I also remember there is a Facebook page from a Facebook account in Hong Kong,which criticize Hong Kong government.(the article now become private and not everyone can access to it. I think it is censored by Chinese government. ) The article was about the women bathroom inside the building of legislative council in Hong Kong.It said that the women's room inside the legislative building is very dirty. Also, there is a sign notice inside the women's room that ask the women  to sit down to urinate, not to squat or hover. But the women squat or hover anyway. Many women peed on the toilet seats, other just squat on the toilet and left footprint on the toilet seats.

I think the ages of legislative members in Hong Kong tend to be old, especially the female members. The youngest female legislative member would at least be 35 years old.The female members of the legislative council tend to be those who choose to urinate on squat toilet rather than western toilet.

although all of them are female bathrooms, the scenario inside the bathrooms are very different,if they are used by particular age group of females or in a environment of ages segregation. people inside the girls bathroom in school or women's room in shopping mall which are students or young women, are more likely to sit down to pee than those who inside female teacher's bathroom or the women bathroom in the legislative building such as female teachers or legislative members."Women" and "girls" became two different groups of people when it come to urination position in bathroom in Asian developed countries.gender segregation seem not be enough,as if ages segregation that separate girls and women may work. suppose such thing happen, bathroom signs will not just be "men" and "women". It may look like "men","girls" and "women" . or it can be "sir/mister", "miss" and "madam/misses". Although this is unlikely happen officially but it tacitly enforced in some places. For example, during holiday inside ladies room in shopping mall or movie theater , the women who is inside tend to be young(tend to below 30) and more likely to sit down on the toilet,although there is no sign notice said something like "only young women are allow" nor said that "old women cannot come in". Also, some old bathroom building in some old temples or old parks have squat toilets only. young women usually not interested in such places. those women inside the ladies room tend to be mature(at least 30 years old,unless they bring their daughters)the women inside more likely are those who choose squat toilet, and more willing to squat then sit, although there is no sign notice said something like "girls are not allow to come in", or "you have to be 30 years old to come in".

if a older woman have full bladder in public, and she try to avoid western toilet. She will try to find a lady's room with squat toilet. after she found one, she most likely meet women in her age group inside bathroom because most women in that age group choose squat toilet. young women don't like squat toilet,so she probably will not see young women inside. similarly, a young women have full bladder in public, she try to find bathroom with western toilet. after she find one, she may likely to meet other women in her age group inside the bathroom, because other young women also choose western toilet while older women will not.

 

@kitty and mimi it seems like the solution is to design bathrooms that have both squat and western toilets.

I wonder when and why it is that the younger generation develops the preference for western toilets? It seems like girls in Asia (China, Vietnam etc.) still learn to squat to pee when they are young. From all my travels and talking with my wife it seems that girls squatting to pee outside still happens frequently on playgrounds, parks, street and even school yard. It seems similar to when the older generation was young. So how have they stopped wanting to squat?

[kitty and mimi 124]

2 hours ago, Havelock said:

it seems like the solution is to design bathrooms that have both squat and western toilets.

yes, it is true, those developed Asian countries do have both squat and western toilet. including Hong Kong,Singapore Taiwan and japan. squat toilet and western toilet co exist inside bathroom of japan and Singapore.but just like mention above, the young Singapore women choose western toilet over squat toilet. I am not really sure how Japanese women choose. In Hong Kong, squat toilet become less  and less common. It appear only in some old temples, old parks, old school building or in those cheap restaurants. new building with squat toilets are uncommon.

[Dr.P 1,473]

When my wife and I visited Thailand, more than a decade ago, most public places had Western toilets, at least in large cities. The exception was a temple, a popular tourist destination, where my wife reported that they had squat toilets, only. .

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 10/25/2022 at 3:14 PM, Havelock said:

It seems like girls in Asia (China, Vietnam etc.) still learn to squat to pee when they are young. From all my travels and talking with my wife it seems that girls squatting to pee outside still happens frequently on playgrounds, parks, street and even school yard. It seems similar to when the older generation was young.

China and Vietnam are less developed and less westernized than those Asian developed countries, therefore, squat toilets are more common in those countries than Singapore and Hong Kong. It is true that little girls in china often squat to pee outside, but this almost never happen in japan or Singapore,and this seldom happen in Hong Kong. those little girls who squat pee outside in Hong Kong are usually migrated from mainland china with their parents. Their parents allow them to do that, but the parents who are native to Hong Kong would hardly allow their daughters to pee outdoor. only the girls in kindergarten would pee outside. They will stop doing this after they get into elementary school. But in mainland china, it is more common for girls to pee outside, even at their elementary school years. As for the girls who pee on school yard, I have never see or heard this before, since the school rules are very strict, those who do this will get sever punishment. Boys sometimes may do that but I have never heard any girls who did that.

 

On 10/25/2022 at 3:14 PM, Havelock said:

I wonder when and why it is that the younger generation develops the preference for western toilets?how have they stopped wanting to squat?

Hong Kong have been westernized through past 30 years, ans western toilet just became popular around 30 years ago. Girls learn to sit down to pee since they are in kindergarten. there are only western toilets in kindergarten in Hong Kong(unlike mainland china, which they use squat toilet.) but after they get into elementary school. they might not have western toilet. Some school buildings are very old that they have squat toilet only, while other schools are build very recently, and they have western toilets. For the girls who were migrated from mainland china to Hong Kong, squat toilet is not a problem for them, but for the girls who are native to Hong Kong, squat toilet may be a problem since they used to sit down to pee when they were in kindergarten. The squat toilets in school in Hong Kong is unlike Japanese toilet, that have hood in front catch forward stream, nor Chinese toilet, which is long troughs. Girls who are native to Hong Kong, not used to squat,did not lean forward while peeing, would shoot the floor and mess up the floor. When the teacher receive any complain, she would ask every girl who used that stall, who did that, and tell the girls to aim correctly next time.the teacher herself have no problem with peeing in squat toilet, because she already used to peeing in squat position.

School with only squat toilets may be advantage for the female teachers, but disadvantage for the female students.

but there is one thing that for advantageous for the student is that, in Hong Kong, most school require female students to wear skirt as part of school uniform. wearing skirt make them easy to squat to pee, while most teachers in Hong Kong don't wear skirt very often.

 

 

 

[Adidas105 140]

My ex wife who is Asian naturally peed forward which was fantastic. Many times she'd demonstrate how far she could pee without parting her lips which was further than me. On our honeymoon she asked me to show her how far I could pee so I did my best which was about six feet. She said 'is that the best you can do?'. She then got naked, stood up, parted her lips and shot a stream fifteen feet across the room. I had made the mistake of standing twelve feet in front of her so was soaked in a matter of seconds, stepped out of the way because she told me to and reached fifteen feet. She said she could get farther if she'd sat on the floor with her back against a chair and she did so the following day. 

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:42 PM, Ms. Tito said:

I wonder if women in  China would be receptive to the idea of standing to pee.

On 10/13/2022 at 10:11 AM, Havelock said:

 she asked why they would stand? She said Asian people are very comfortable squatting and often squat when not peeing (just waiting, eating etc.) because it's comfortable. 

 

I think this have more to do with culture than biological reason. Chinese people view about gender tend to be binary. Men are supposed to be dominant while women are supposed be be submissive.peeing standing up is considered to be a sign of dominant(a penis symbolize a gun, which represent masculine power, peeing while holding a penis is like shooting while holding a gun) while peeing squatting down is a sign of submissive. Also,many Chinese bathroom, (both men's room and women's room) are open stall,(open stand urinal is in men's room,while the stalls in women's room have no door, some of them don't even have partition between stalls, other have partitions with only several feet tall) it is common for Chinese people seeing the people of same sex peeing inside a single sex bathroom, no matter they are men or women. people inside a bathroom with people of same gender are supposed to pee in a same posture, or other people might consider you to be weird, you will draw attention from other people which might think that you do not belong here. peeing position is a gender stereotype, just like women wearing skirt with long hair while men wearing pants with short hair. Also, Chinese women tend to go to bathroom together, squat side by side, talk to each other while peeing, sometime, even compare and discuss about each other's bottom half naked body, talk about who's body is fat, who is skinny, who has the most attractive lower body part,who's stream shoot the farthest. If every one else are squatting while you are the only one who is standing, other women may think that you do not belong to the women's side. Chinese women consider female identity as a group identity, rather than just an individual Identity. to squat to pee among other women in open women's room is a way to reinforce this female group identity to fit into that group. biological reason is just secondary.

Edited November 4, 2022 by kitty and mimi

[Peetea 140]

On 8/10/2022 at 12:32 PM, AbbyLuna said:

I shoot my pee forward like 20 inches without any assistance from my hands 

I LOVE this Abby. 🥰🍓💦💛💦💛💦💛💥💥💥

[Peetea 140]

On 8/11/2022 at 12:35 PM, sathuta said:

That's great, hope you can shoot over 2 meters ahead.

Peeing pussy is the most beautiful sight in the world !🍓💦💛💦💥

[Dr.P 1,473]

@Simpfan, Childbirth may change the urethral angle and affect the direction and character of the stream. Many women find that their stream comes out more forward, or makes it spray, causing it to wet their thighs, hit the toilet seat, or go under it, when sitting down, which can be messy. I find it very sexy, and love to watch it!

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:17 PM, Havelock said:

 

She's of Asian descent and naturally pees forward in front of her feet. She says that she peed even more forward when she was young.

On 8/13/2022 at 6:57 PM, Dr.P said:

Younger women may tend to have more nearly horizontal streams.

 

 

This reminded me there is a Chinese idiom, it is "处女尿尿一条线,妇女尿尿一大片".  I don't think I can translate this correctly. maybe you can ask your wife if she can translate this. the word "处女"mean girl,young woman, virgin or unmarried woman. the word "妇女" mean non-virgin,mature woman or married woman. The rough meaning that I can translate is that young unmarried women tend to have more straight forward peeing stream while mature marries women ten to have downward peeing stream. this idiom have several different versions. one version of this idiom is appear in a Chinese novel,"Under the Hawthorn Tree". It was said by a crazy old female character in the book. this idiom become more and more popular among Chinese speaking internet users recently. it said "大姑娘尿尿一条线 小媳妇尿尿湿一片". the word "大姑娘" means mature woman,probably above 30 years old,still unmarried, still virgin. the word "小媳妇" mean young wife,probably married around 18-20 years old. the rough meaning of this idiom is that even when the woman get older(like 25-35), she would still have forward stream as long as she stay unmarried, virgin; if a woman get married,she no longer have forward stream even if she is still young. I am not sure if this is real or just a Chinese superstition. This may be a Chinese superstition because traditional Chinese culture is very patriarchal, and value virginity, look down on the women who are non virgin before marriage. Since both forward stream and virginity are consider to be good for women in Chinese cultures, people associate forward stream with virginity.

there are people in Chinese speaking circle discuss if this is true or not and how this can be true. some people say that this is biological other people say that this is cultural.

I think this is cultural,because many lady's room in china have squat toilet with no door, some don't even have partition, while a lot of Chinese young single women(or women in mature age who is unmarried, mentally immature) tend to go to bathroom together, a lot of them might have "pee contest", which they compete to see who can shoot the farthest. Young and unmarred women tend to have more friends which they go to bathroom together. inside a bathroom that women seeing each other peeing, it may considered to be good to let their friends to see their forward stream. Some women will not go to bathroom alone in public even if she have full bladder because, she want to hold until her friends feel  urgent too, which they can go to bathroom together. This make her bladder more full and more likely to have forward stream.

going to bathroom together is very common among female Chinese high school students. The more friends she go to bathroom with, the more sociable she is, but as they grow older, the number of friends who they go to bathroom with would be decrease. most of those friends who go to bathroom together in high school will not keep doing the same after their graduation. after marriage, only the best friends will keep going to bathroom together, those are friends who know each other for long time.they can talk about thing that consider to be private,that does not want other people to hear, especially, talk about their husband,their son or their family, which they talk while squat peeing next to each other, which the men cannot hear.

After marriage, they are less likely to make more new "pee friends". Most "pee friends" knew each other before they get married,some of them knew each other since high school.

married women or women who are in relationship are less likely to pee with friends in public bathroom, and more likely to pee alone. for example, if she go out with her boyfriend or husband, she may not be convenient to bring other friends. when the couple have full bladder and want to go to bathroom in public which is gender segregation, the woman go to women's room while the men need go to another side. Heterosexual couple cannot pee together in gender segregation public bathroom while same sex friends and homosexual couple can. therefor, if she go inside the bathroom and see other women squat side by side and talk to each other while peeing, they may be more likely to be single(or lesbian couple), while those who peeing squat alone may be married or in relationship(her boyfriend or husband is on the other side of the bathroom)

inside of a Chinese lady's room seem like a entire different society with entirely different cultural value. for a straight  woman who only go out with her boyfriend or husband, once she go inside the ladies room, she automatically become "single",because she does not have friend to pee with. for women who go to bathroom with friends, they are "not single" inside the bathroom, even if they are not married and don't have boyfriend. the social norm inside lady's room is different from outside. outside of ladies room, the norm for women is to have a boyfriend or married. inside the ladies room, the norm is for women to build relationship with each other, and safely complain about their boyfriend, husband,father and son who are in next door which the men cannot hear what the women talking about. the expression of intimacy is also different from outside world. in outside world, the way for woman to express intimacy is have sex with her boyfriend or husband, but inside a Chinese ladies room, the way of express intimacy is to squat and pee next to a same sex friend and show her half naked body to each other.

since the norm is different from outside,the term"single" and "couple" should be redefined. two women who talk to each other while squat to pee side by side should be considered to be couple. A woman whose boyfriend or husband is peeing in the next door of bathroom, while she is peeing alone in women's room, should be considered to be single.

inside the ladies room, the concept of Heterosexual couple only exist in the women's conversation when they complain about their boyfriend or husband (or single women talk about the men who are chasing them,and so on)while the men are on the other side of the bathroom,without the men's acknowledge.

although straight women who peeing together inside Chinese open bathroom are emotionally bond to each other,but unlike real couple, they are not sexually attract to each other. sexually,they compete with each other. if a woman see her friend have more attractive legs, while hers exposed too, she may feel jealous.(this similar to some male adolescents who compete to see who have largest penis while stand peeing on male urinals) this may be even more obvious if both women wear skirt. A woman who is shy about her body may choose to wear pants rather than skirt when she go out, if she expected that she will have to pee in open bathroom with her friends. She may not pull her pants too low,squat as soon as she pull her pants down,pull her pants up as fast as she finish peeing, as fast as she stand up, to minimize the exposures. A woman who have more confidence about her body might choose to wear skirt when go to public bathroom. wear thing that is very revealing have different meaning than when she is outside compare to when she is inside a open Chinese lady's room. If a woman wearing in a way that is sexy and very exposed, such as short skirt when going out, or exposed her breast in beach, the reason is to attract men, but if a woman wear skirt that is revealing when go to open lady's room,the reason is not attract men since no men will be there to watch. the women wear skirt that is very revealing when they go out, if they expect to peeing in open public women's room, attracting men is not the reason, the reason is to compete physically attractiveness with other women while peeing.

Chinese open women's rooms are advantageous for lesbian couple and women who go out with same sex friends, while it is disadvantageous for heterosexual couple who go out by themselves. it separate heterosexual couple, but not separate lesbian couple. lesbian couple can pee together in Chinese open lady's room while heterosexual couple have to separate while peeing.

one advantage of single women go out with same sex friends (or lesbian couple go out together) is that they can squat side by side and pee together in open public bathroom. one disadvantage for straight married woman or straight woman in relationship go out with her boyfriend or her husband is that she may need to pee alone in a open bathroom while watched by other women with no friend she can accompany with. if this make her feel anxiety, her stream may be downward rather than forward.

married women are more likely to go to bathroom together with family than friends, if they do go to bathroom together with other people of same sex. (for example, mother in law, or daughter) what she act in front of her family is different than when she is in front of friends. when friends pee together, they may have pee contest,or even compare each other's half naked bodies. but when peeing with mother in law or daughter, she need to keep her stream down to make her more restrained,modest and respectful. she does not want her mother in law have bad impression or her daughter get bad influence from her.

married mature women as getting older,are less likely(less willing to,or less often) to pee with people who they are unrelated. especially if the other women are much younger than she is. straight people in general, no matter they are men or women, would feel  jealous of other people of same sex who look more attractive than him or her. when a open women's room that women are mix age inside with no door,everyone seeing each other squat to pee,young women may feel okay,while the old women will feel not okay when they see the young women exposed half naked bodies while squat(which is considered to be more attractive than theirs) while theirs will be exposed to the young women too.(this is not a problem if they are mother and daughter,but if they are student and teacher,this may be a problem) in the setting of heterosexual female communal urination, which ages of women are mixed,and the women are unrelated to each other, it is more advantageous for younger women, and disadvantageous for older women.(this would be reverse in men's room on male urinals, which older men are considered to be more attractive,which make younger men feel jealous.)

in schools in mainland china, as far as I can tell,bathroom for teachers are not separate from student's bathroom.students and teachers use same bathroom(unlike Hong Kong,which students and teachers use different bathroom)the girls bathrooms are used by both female teachers and female students. they all open squat toilets (as far as I know) students and teachers do not have different preference of urination postures, everyone willing to squat (unlike Hong Kong,which students prefer to sit, while teacher prefers to squat ). although female students and teachers use a same girl's bathroom,which everyone squat to pee with no door, that is very unlikely for teachers and students seeing each other peeing, because the students are hardly mix with teachers at the same time inside bathroom. the students go to bathroom during class break time (students are not suppose to go to bathroom during class)while teachers have their own "pee break" during class times(as long as I know, it unlike Hong Hong that teachers are not allow to go to bathroom during class) female students tend to go to bathroom together, while the teachers tend to go to bathroom alone. the female teacher usually go to pee, when the girl's bathroom is empty,no girls inside the bathroom, when all the girls are in class rooms. it was a "girl's room" for students in class break time, automatically become a "women's room" for teachers during class time.(the younger teachers maybe more likely than the older teachers to pee with her students )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by kitty and mimi

[Dr.P 1,473]

1 hour ago, kitty and mimi said:

one version of this idiom is appear in a Chinese novel,"Under the Hawthorn Tree". It was said by a crazy old female character in the book. this idiom become more and more popular among Chinese speaking internet users recently. it said "大姑娘尿尿一条线 小媳妇尿尿湿一片". the word "大姑娘" means mature woman,probably above 30 years old,still unmarried, still virgin. the word "小媳妇" mean young wife,probably married around 18-20 years old. the rough meaning of this idiom is that even when the woman get older(like 25-35), she would still have forward stream as long as she stay unmarried, virgin; if a woman get married,she no longer have forward stream even if she is still young. I am not sure if this is real or just a Chinese superstition. This may be a Chinese superstition because traditional Chinese culture is very patriarchal, and value virginity, look down on the women who are non virgin before marriage. Since both forward stream and virginity are consider to be good for women in Chinese cultures, people associate forward stream with virginity.

there are people in Chinese speaking circle discuss if this is true or not and how this can be true. some people say that this is biological other people say that this is cultural.

I believe that a lot of this is cultural, and the product of folklore and superstition. Biology is very important. Age and sexual behavior are not the only influences on stream direction and force. Childbirth can have major effects, causing downward or forward stream directions. There is a condition called "dropped bladder" in middle aged women, often associated with childbirth, which can actually cause the stream to go forward, rather than downward. Middle aged Western women, using Western toilets, sometimes are surprised by this, when their streams suddenly go high and forward enough to splatter the fronts of Western toilet seats, when they are sitting on them. Your discussion of the complex social relationships of Chinese women, and their interactions in bathrooms, are very interesting. I have not heard about them before, from my wife, or other sources. Thanks for posting.  

[Carb0nBased 647]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:29 PM, kitty and mimi said:

This reminded me there is a Chinese idiom, it is "处女尿尿一条线,妇女尿尿一大片".  I don't think I can translate this correctly. maybe you can ask your wife if she can translate this. the word "处女"mean girl,young woman, virgin or unmarried woman. the word "妇女" mean non-virgin,mature woman or married woman. The rough meaning that I can translate is that young unmarried women tend to have more straight forward peeing stream while mature marries women ten to have downward peeing stream. this idiom have several different versions. one version of this idiom is appear in a Chinese novel,"Under the Hawthorn Tree". It was said by a crazy old female character in the book. this idiom become more and more popular among Chinese speaking internet users recently. it said "大姑娘尿尿一条线 小媳妇尿尿湿一片". the word "大姑娘" means mature woman,probably above 30 years old,still unmarried, still virgin. the word "小媳妇" mean young wife,probably married around 18-20 years old. the rough meaning of this idiom is that even when the woman get older(like 25-35), she would still have forward stream as long as she stay unmarried, virgin; if a woman get married,she no longer have forward stream even if she is still young. I am not sure if this is real or just a Chinese superstition. This may be a Chinese superstition because traditional Chinese culture is very patriarchal, and value virginity, look down on the women who are non virgin before marriage. Since both forward stream and virginity are consider to be good for women in Chinese cultures, people associate forward stream with virginity.

 

I didn't know there were cultures in which there were values associated with the angle of women's pee streams! In fact, that aside from some of us pee fans, who are very attuned to such things, I didn't think most people even paid enough attention to the angle of urine streams for the idea that they could be found attractive (or not) to cross their minds. 

 

[kitty and mimi 124]

18 hours ago, Carb0nBased said:

I didn't know there were cultures in which there were values associated with the angle of women's pee streams! In fact, that aside from some of us pee fans, who are very attuned to such things, I didn't think most people even paid enough attention to the angle of urine streams for the idea that they could be found attractive (or not) to cross their minds. 

 

please read the Chinese novel "Hawthorn Tree Forever"   (山楂树之恋)by ai mi (艾米).

I am not sure if it have English translation or not.

as I said in my last post, My ability of translation is limited. some slang or idiom may not be translated correctly.

also, I just found another Chinese novel today, which is called "The Ninth Widow"(第九个寡妇). a version of the same idiom appear in this novel too.

those two book were written by two different authors. both are female. this suggest that this idea might be commonly known among Chinese women in older generation, whether they truly believe it is another matter.

Edited November 30, 2022 by kitty and mimi

[Dr.P 1,473]

18 hours ago, Carb0nBased said:

I didn't know there were cultures in which there were values associated with the angle of women's pee streams! In fact, that aside from some of us pee fans, who are very attuned to such things, I didn't think most people even paid enough attention to the angle of urine streams for the idea that they could be found attractive (or not) to cross their minds. 

I didn't know that, either, even though I have been involved in the Asian culture, through my wife and many Asian friends, for many years. I thought I was one of a small number of people who had an intense interest in the details of women's peeing styles. Forward-directed streams have always been my favorites, because they tend to be more difficult to control, and more messy.

[Dr.P 1,473]

4 hours ago, kitty and mimi said:

those two book were written by two different authors. both are female. this suggest that this idea might be commonly known among Chinese women in older generation, whether they truly believe it is another matter.

My wife and I are definitely among the older generation, but I have never heard her talk about these ideas. But I am the one who is interested in women's peeing styles, and have been delighted to observe that forward-directed streams seem to be more common among Asians, than among other ethnicities.

[kitty and mimi 124]

17 hours ago, Dr.P said:

My wife and I are definitely among the older generation, but I have never heard her talk about these ideas. But I am the one who is interested in women's peeing styles, and have been delighted to observe that forward-directed streams seem to be more common among Asians, than among other ethnicities.

can she still read Chinese?

I found a link for the novel:https://www.xstt5.com/dangdai/1902/

and the pee story in the novel:https://www.xstt5.com/dangdai/1902/140363.html

 

 

update:I just found one more novel that mentioned the same idea.

there are three novels that mention this idea,as far as I can tell.

is this just a new concept created by the author of the novels?

could this have been created by one author, and then other authors follow it as a example?

are those authors "closet pee fans"?

Edited November 30, 2022 by kitty and mimi

[Havelock 1,526]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:29 PM, kitty and mimi said:

This reminded me there is a Chinese idiom, it is "处女尿尿一条线,妇女尿尿一大片".  I don't think I can translate this correctly. maybe you can ask your wife if she can translate this. the word "处女"mean girl,young woman, virgin or unmarried woman. the word "妇女" mean non-virgin,mature woman or married woman. The rough meaning that I can translate is that young unmarried women tend to have more straight forward peeing stream while mature marries women ten to have downward peeing stream. this idiom have several different versions. one version of this idiom is appear in a Chinese novel,"Under the Hawthorn Tree". It was said by a crazy old female character in the book. this idiom become more and more popular among Chinese speaking internet users recently. it said "大姑娘尿尿一条线 小媳妇尿尿湿一片". the word "大姑娘" means mature woman,probably above 30 years old,still unmarried, still virgin. the word "小媳妇" mean young wife,probably married around 18-20 years old. the rough meaning of this idiom is that even when the woman get older(like 25-35), she would still have forward stream as long as she stay unmarried, virgin; if a woman get married,she no longer have forward stream even if she is still young. I am not sure if this is real or just a Chinese superstition. This may be a Chinese superstition because traditional Chinese culture is very patriarchal, and value virginity, look down on the women who are non virgin before marriage. Since both forward stream and virginity are consider to be good for women in Chinese cultures, people associate forward stream with virginity.

there are people in Chinese speaking circle discuss if this is true or not and how this can be true. some people say that this is biological other people say that this is cultural.

I think this is cultural,because many lady's room in china have squat toilet with no door, some don't even have partition, while a lot of Chinese young single women(or women in mature age who is unmarried, mentally immature) tend to go to bathroom together, a lot of them might have "pee contest", which they compete to see who can shoot the farthest. Young and unmarred women tend to have more friends which they go to bathroom together. inside a bathroom that women seeing each other peeing, it may considered to be good to let their friends to see their forward stream. Some women will not go to bathroom alone in public even if she have full bladder because, she want to hold until her friends feel  urgent too, which they can go to bathroom together. This make her bladder more full and more likely to have forward stream.

going to bathroom together is very common among female Chinese high school students. The more friends she go to bathroom with, the more sociable she is, but as they grow older, the number of friends who they go to bathroom with would be decrease. most of those friends who go to bathroom together in high school will not keep doing the same after their graduation. after marriage, only the best friends will keep going to bathroom together, those are friends who know each other for long time.they can talk about thing that consider to be private,that does not want other people to hear, especially, talk about their husband,their son or their family, which they talk while squat peeing next to each other, which the men cannot hear.

After marriage, they are less likely to make more new "pee friends". Most "pee friends" knew each other before they get married,some of them knew each other since high school.

married women or women who are in relationship are less likely to pee with friends in public bathroom, and more likely to pee alone. for example, if she go out with her boyfriend or husband, she may not be convenient to bring other friends. when the couple have full bladder and want to go to bathroom in public which is gender segregation, the woman go to women's room while the men need go to another side. Heterosexual couple cannot pee together in gender segregation public bathroom while same sex friends and homosexual couple can. therefor, if she go inside the bathroom and see other women squat side by side and talk to each other while peeing, they may be more likely to be single(or lesbian couple), while those who peeing squat alone may be married or in relationship(her boyfriend or husband is on the other side of the bathroom)

inside of a Chinese lady's room seem like a entire different society with entirely different cultural value. for a straight  woman who only go out with her boyfriend or husband, once she go inside the ladies room, she automatically become "single",because she does not have friend to pee with. for women who go to bathroom with friends, they are "not single" inside the bathroom, even if they are not married and don't have boyfriend. the social norm inside lady's room is different from outside. outside of ladies room, the norm for women is to have a boyfriend or married. inside the ladies room, the norm is for women to build relationship with each other, and safely complain about their boyfriend, husband,father and son who are in next door which the men cannot hear what the women talking about. the expression of intimacy is also different from outside world. in outside world, the way for woman to express intimacy is have sex with her boyfriend or husband, but inside a Chinese ladies room, the way of express intimacy is to squat and pee next to a same sex friend and show her half naked body to each other.

since the norm is different from outside,the term"single" and "couple" should be redefined. two women who talk to each other while squat to pee side by side should be considered to be couple. A woman whose boyfriend or husband is peeing in the next door of bathroom, while she is peeing alone in women's room, should be considered to be single.

inside the ladies room, the concept of Heterosexual couple only exist in the women's conversation when they complain about their boyfriend or husband (or single women talk about the men who are chasing them,and so on)while the men are on the other side of the bathroom,without the men's acknowledge.

although straight women who peeing together inside Chinese open bathroom are emotionally bond to each other,but unlike real couple, they are not sexually attract to each other. sexually,they compete with each other. if a woman see her friend have more attractive legs, while hers exposed too, she may feel jealous.(this similar to some male adolescents who compete to see who have largest penis while stand peeing on male urinals) this may be even more obvious if both women wear skirt. A woman who is shy about her body may choose to wear pants rather than skirt when she go out, if she expected that she will have to pee in open bathroom with her friends. She may not pull her pants too low,squat as soon as she pull her pants down,pull her pants up as fast as she finish peeing, as fast as she stand up, to minimize the exposures. A woman who have more confidence about her body might choose to wear skirt when go to public bathroom. wear thing that is very revealing have different meaning than when she is outside compare to when she is inside a open Chinese lady's room. If a woman wearing in a way that is sexy and very exposed, such as short skirt when going out, or exposed her breast in beach, the reason is to attract men, but if a woman wear skirt that is revealing when go to open lady's room,the reason is not attract men since no men will be there to watch. the women wear skirt that is very revealing when they go out, if they expect to peeing in open public women's room, attracting men is not the reason, the reason is to compete physically attractiveness with other women while peeing.

Chinese open women's rooms are advantageous for lesbian couple and women who go out with same sex friends, while it is disadvantageous for heterosexual couple who go out by themselves. it separate heterosexual couple, but not separate lesbian couple. lesbian couple can pee together in Chinese open lady's room while heterosexual couple have to separate while peeing.

one advantage of single women go out with same sex friends (or lesbian couple go out together) is that they can squat side by side and pee together in open public bathroom. one disadvantage for straight married woman or straight woman in relationship go out with her boyfriend or her husband is that she may need to pee alone in a open bathroom while watched by other women with no friend she can accompany with. if this make her feel anxiety, her stream may be downward rather than forward.

married women are more likely to go to bathroom together with family than friends, if they do go to bathroom together with other people of same sex. (for example, mother in law, or daughter) what she act in front of her family is different than when she is in front of friends. when friends pee together, they may have pee contest,or even compare each other's half naked bodies. but when peeing with mother in law or daughter, she need to keep her stream down to make her more restrained,modest and respectful. she does not want her mother in law have bad impression or her daughter get bad influence from her.

married mature women as getting older,are less likely(less willing to,or less often) to pee with people who they are unrelated. especially if the other women are much younger than she is. straight people in general, no matter they are men or women, would feel  jealous of other people of same sex who look more attractive than him or her. when a open women's room that women are mix age inside with no door,everyone seeing each other squat to pee,young women may feel okay,while the old women will feel not okay when they see the young women exposed half naked bodies while squat(which is considered to be more attractive than theirs) while theirs will be exposed to the young women too.(this is not a problem if they are mother and daughter,but if they are student and teacher,this may be a problem) in the setting of heterosexual female communal urination, which ages of women are mixed,and the women are unrelated to each other, it is more advantageous for younger women, and disadvantageous for older women.(this would be reverse in men's room on male urinals, which older men are considered to be more attractive,which make younger men feel jealous.)

in schools in mainland china, as far as I can tell,bathroom for teachers are not separate from student's bathroom.students and teachers use same bathroom(unlike Hong Kong,which students and teachers use different bathroom)the girls bathrooms are used by both female teachers and female students. they all open squat toilets (as far as I know) students and teachers do not have different preference of urination postures, everyone willing to squat (unlike Hong Kong,which students prefer to sit, while teacher prefers to squat ). although female students and teachers use a same girl's bathroom,which everyone squat to pee with no door, that is very unlikely for teachers and students seeing each other peeing, because the students are hardly mix with teachers at the same time inside bathroom. the students go to bathroom during class break time (students are not suppose to go to bathroom during class)while teachers have their own "pee break" during class times(as long as I know, it unlike Hong Hong that teachers are not allow to go to bathroom during class) female students tend to go to bathroom together, while the teachers tend to go to bathroom alone. the female teacher usually go to pee, when the girl's bathroom is empty,no girls inside the bathroom, when all the girls are in class rooms. it was a "girl's room" for students in class break time, automatically become a "women's room" for teachers during class time.(the younger teachers maybe more likely than the older teachers to pee with her students )

 

@kitty and mimi Thank you for this contribution. It is very interesting. I shared this with my wife and she had heard the idiom but was not very familiar with it. She asked her mom, who laughed and asked where she heard that. She said it was meant to apply to women before / after child birth. But there it is not universal, just like some women are able to restore their figures after childbirth. She also mentioned the Chinese tradition of binding the women to restore their figures after childbirth and eating a special diet of congee, bone broths, herbs etc..

My wife confirmed a few things. Yes, it is much more common for women in China to see each other peeing and to be able to see the pee stream. She thinks this comes from the facts that China was a very agricultural society, communism pushed ideas of communal living, suppressed class ideas of politeness, and communism affected the roll out of modern plumbing. Into the 20th century, many had no modern plumbing at home and the government constructed bathrooms were often communal and open. Women would pee and socialize together outside and this was carried over to the indoor bathrooms which were all squat toilets. These circumstances naturally led to observing pee streams.

She said in her generation and for even many still, a forward pee stream was considered advantageous when you are young. That's because most are brought up with kāidāngkù (open crotch) instead of diapers. The more forward the stream is, the more it lands in front of them and keeps their feet dry. Children continue to pee outside frequently even after toilet training so this continues to matter. Thus in China parents are proud that their girls can have a very forward stream. This pride is probably mixed into the origin of the idiom. She thinks it's funny that silly western parents are annoyed by forward streams and even think it's a problem.

She also commented that the idea from the idiom that the stream must go down with age is a bit dated. Women these days don't accept roles and aging like previous generations and do much to stay fit. She thought a forward stream even after marriage or childbirth could be a modern sign of women's power and virility these days. She then told me I am lucky to have such a fit and powerful wife. 🙂