Do you believe in God?

[steve25805 126,023]

Another question of the week - Do you believe in God?

I do not believe in God as some kind of bearded tyrant on the throne, casting down thunderbolts and smiting people. In short I do not believe in the God of the bible at all, certainly not the one of the Old Testament who seems such an obviously human construct.

But I have always believed in some kind of universal life force that permeates the entire universe and is in all things and everywhere and that our very souls are part of it and formed from it.

But I have been learning a lot from @spywareonya, who acknowledges the existence of "overseers", supreme beings who overlook everything and who created the various Gods she worships and believes in. "Overseers" itself is plural, which suggests more than one. And I have yet to integrate her concept of these into my more generalised one of a universal life force. And the Gods she believes they created - Pan, Lilith, etc - I have come to accept as in some way real yet there is still room for doubt. In effect, I kind of believe without fully believing at the same time, keeping all possibilities open in my mind.

But I have at times been impressed by Nancy's depth of knowledge and psychic abilities so am convinced she is in tune with higher powers, which lends credence to all she teaches, and I am very receptive to it.

So in short, I do not believe in the god of the bible, nor really in Christianity or indeed any organised religion, but am very much becoming a tentative believer in Wicca - I think that is the right term, if not Nancy will correct me - open to Nancy's teachings and receptive to them whilst always retaining an open mind.

I myself am spiritually and psychically aware enough to "know" that there are deeper forces at work out there and more than just what we can currently measure in a lab. I have felt a real connection with other-non-physical beings under the inspiration and guidance of Nancy, and in the past have suffered quite badly from conjuring something malevolent into my life via Ouija boards, so know there are forces and beings out there beyond what we can physically see with our eyes. So on a provisional, maybe, level I accept Nancy's worldview of such things and am increasingly morphing into a believer, yet an open-minded one, a part of my brain always open to the possibility that even she could be wrong. But I am becoming a follower.

[F.W 5,734]

I do.I do see him as a kind of Zeus character,all fury etc.A bit like Charlton Heston with a white beard.

But,i also take the advice of a Hebrew Rabbi,at Auschwitz.The Rabbi,and hundreds of his flock were about to be forced to the gas chambers.Upon learning this terrible fate,he said something along the lines like,"God,we are YOUR chosen people!,give us a sign now,that you hear us in our despair,smite our Nazi guards,allow us to escape!"

Of course nothing happened,and as the unfortunate people were herded to their deaths,he declared"There is no God".This was related by one of the survivors,who even as the people were being herded along,would then go among the belongings and start to look for money,and valuables etc.

So,God yes,a kind of benign being who looks upon us,yet almost Star Trek like,is forbidden to interfere in our lives.

[spywareonya 37,961]

16 minutes ago, F.W said:

I do.I do see him as a kind of Zeus character,all fury etc.A bit like Charlton Heston with a white beard

I am not daring to comment one's belief, too intimate, I bow in awe at something so intimate

YET if you ask me, you got embarassingly near to the truth we Witches believe in

 

16 minutes ago, F.W said:

But,i also take the advice of a Hebrew Rabbi,at Auschwitz.The Rabbi,and hundreds of his flock were about to be forced to the gas chambers.Upon learning this terrible fate,he said something along the lines like,"God,we are YOUR chosen people!,give us a sign now,that you hear us in our despair,smite our Nazi guards,allow us to escape!"

Of course nothing happened,and as the unfortunate people were herded to their deaths,he declared"There is no God".This was related by one of the survivors,who even as the people were being herded along,would then go among the belongings and start to look for money,and valuables etc.

So,God yes,a kind of benign being who looks upon us,yet almost Star Trek like,is forbidden to interfere in our lives.

Our explaination for this, but again may I die raped if I DARE go around like Nanct knows best, I am just telling you a story, our explaination is that for every layer of existence there are forces of Good, much similar to a Bearded Charlton Heston (who's also my favourite actor of all time, guess what?), yet they are not allmighty

This lack of absolute power makes that though They actually and constantly help us, they can't be everywhere nor do everything

 

Thank you for this amazingly intimate voyage in your heart

THANK YOU

 

[steve25805 126,023]

19 minutes ago, F.W said:

So,God yes,a kind of benign being who looks upon us,yet almost Star Trek like,is forbidden to interfere in our lives.

Whether overseers, a universal life force, or whatever, I too tend to believe there is an all encompassing "something", but like you I believe it allows us free will and does not overtly interfere with our fates, except perhaps in the most indirect of ways. 

The one aspect of @spywareonya,s beliefs I most struggle with is the notion that the overseers actually intervened to create her gods a mere 10,000 or so years ago. This is far more "interventionist" than I'd ever believed or imagined any supreme being or force to be. Yet I am open to the possibility of it, and indeed provisionally acceppting it as fact. The true nature of the overseers is not something Nancy and I have discussed in depth. There is so much more to learn.

[spywareonya 37,961]

41 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

So on a provisional, maybe, level I accept Nancy's worldview of such things and am increasingly morphing into a believer, yet an open-minded one, a part of my brain always open to the possibility that even she could be wrong. But I am becoming a follower.

It's the starting point

 

Then you will morph according to personal experiences

I can give you the infos we obtained by sneaking everywhere into Armies and Laboratories, and they all quite fit and stick together, but unless you will see an object move on itself during a ritual, you will never be able to be 100% sure there ARE things Science ALREADY EXPLAINED and were just KEPT HIDDEN!!!

 

 

Yes, I acknowledge the existence of the Overseers above the very Multiverse, entities of uncomputable size and power, yet their scientifica explaination is embarassingly simple and not that astonishing at all

According to the Lore filtered down from servants unto us, they even consider themselves simple living being

Just able to obliterate all of reality and reshape it (including us inside of it) without us noticing, and responsible accordingly

And because of this, my answer to this doubt of yours:

 

9 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

The one aspect of @spywareonya,s beliefs I most struggle with is the notion that the overseers actually intervened to create her gods a mere 10,000 or so years ago. This is far more "interventionist" than I'd ever believed or imagined any supreme being or force to be. Yet I am open to the possibility of it. The true nature of the overseers is not something Nancy and I have discussed in depth. There is so much more to learn.

 

is that like you and me they are living beings entitled to do everything they want and deem moral!!!

 

No "God attitude"

 

But we have been explained that our love for a NON-INTERVENTIONIST god has a higher spiritual purpose and though the unverse does NOT work that way, there is a deep secret in it to be revealed...

 

[steve25805 126,023]

@spywareonya, I love and respect you so much, and am convinced you know so much more than me about deeper, more spiritual, levels of existence. I defer to your knowledge often and willingly, and feel that I am perhaps on a journey of discovery guided by you. If you tell me something that maybe doesn't sit easily with anything I have always believed, you are more able than anyone else I know to make me think perhaps I wasnt fully correct and perhaps you are more so. So I often suspend any doubts and take on board all you say seriously and as serious truth as I make my journey guided by you. I believe in your Gods as real. I sometimes ponder and wonder what their true and full natures are - how dark and how light, etc. But you have pretty much persuaded me of their reality and did so some time ago.

I respect and love the journey you are guiding me along, though I always make any journey with an open mind. But my biggest obstacle is not any sense of disbelief. It is the intrusion of real life and all the time and energy this sucks out of my existence. When very busy, I struggle to find the time to travel further in my journey which requires a relaxed and untired frame of mind and a sufficiency of spare time.

Roll on my two weeks off in June, which coincides with the summer solstice. Will have plenty of time then.

[steve25805 126,023]

43 minutes ago, spywareonya said:

unless you will see an object move on itself during a ritual...

That would indeed be most convincing as well as likely to scare the crap out of me, lol

Which probably means that unless there is a good a positive reason in all but that instant to scare the crap out of me, they will likely never do it.

Tis true though that any semblance of doubt would totally disappear and I'd become the hardest of hardcore believers, lol

[spywareonya 37,961]

30 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

any semblance of doubt would totally disappear and I'd become the hardest of hardcore believers

I would not be a hardcore believer myself, unless this happened to me and not only once

 

1 hour ago, steve25805 said:

When very busy, I struggle to find the time to travel further in my journey which requires a relaxed and untired frame of mind and a sufficiency of spare time.

Beside the impossibly loving post you wrote, I decided to quote this because to the rest of the post I could not reply in any other way that humble gratitude

When people trust you, you immediately feel responsible for such trust and become humble

(if it doesn't happen, find a therapist because you are narcissitic and power-hungry ahahahahahahahahahah)

 

 

Reality becomes less of a problem after you develop the certainty They are in every wrinkle of it, ever watching

Yet anyway many of existence is not creation but prolapse, lacking spiritual (read: Humanistic) fittingness, and thus can take men away from the Gods (and even worse, from themselves)

[2prnot2p 1,066]

 

 

[steve25805 126,023]

4 minutes ago, spywareonya said:

When people trust you

As someone who struggles at times with anxiety issues which have their paranoia aspects, trust is a very difficult thing for me. I am predisposed - pre-programmed almost - to mistrust everyone and everything as my default setting.

So the fact that I place so much trust and faith in you is a real credit to your character. Trust is not something I grant easily.

But you are in my mind an exceptional person.

[steve25805 126,023]

5 minutes ago, 2prnot2p said:

 

 

He is a good spokesman.

What he says though about any supreme being being all powerful and all good not conforming with reality as it exists, assumes that any such being would be an interventionist one if it had the power.

But I tend not to believe in an interventionist supreme being, believing instead that any higher universal entity would mostly let us develop on our own path with only subtle guidance, since allowing us all - and life itself - to develop naturally is itself essential to our spiritual development and any overall plan.

So the lack of any intervention to prevent bad things happening now does not to me prove the non-existence of any higher being, but simply the importance of non-intervention for the eventual greater good over timespans of billions of years. I also do not suppose that any universal beings are all powerful. They operate within limits too, however powerful they may be.

But I know you are an ultra-rationalist who will laugh at all this. That is your right. Your opinion counts too.

[spywareonya 37,961]

27 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

As someone who struggles at times with anxiety issues which have their paranoia aspects, trust is a very difficult thing for me. I am predisposed - pre-programmed almost - to mistrust everyone and everything as my default setting.

So the fact that I place so much trust and faith in you is a real credit to your character. Trust is not something I grant easily.

But you are in my mind an exceptional person.

My pivot of power is transparency

I am followed only because people know it's in their interest as I love them and their fights

So you can serenely trust me as I would never play with you, not even uconsciously

[spywareonya 37,961]

17 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

So the lack of any intervention to prevent bad things happening now does not to me prove the non-existence of any higher being, but simply the importance of non-intervention for the eventual greater good over timespans of billions of years. I also do not suppose that any universal beings are all powerful. They operate within limits too, however powerful they may be

First religion doctors called this debate "Teodicea" in Latin

If God is allmighty and all good, how can evil still exist?

 

Yes, there are interventionist entities, but they are not all powerful

There are also interventionist all powerful entities, but they are alseep

[steve25805 126,023]

2 minutes ago, spywareonya said:

There are also interventionist all powerful entities, but they are alseep

Asleep? Or merely choosing not to intervene because of the importance of natural development to the ultimate goal? And only ever likely to intervene if that development is itself threatened?

[spywareonya 37,961]

8 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

Asleep? Or merely choosing not to intervene because of the importance of natural development to the ultimate goal? And only ever likely to intervene if that development is itself threatened?

Development is a way to upload alertness and wiseness in the quantum texture of brute matter, to make everything spiritual in the end

Souls syphon spirituality in the bodies they inhabitate, and then disperse this light both during life and upon death

 

The intervention of Overseers could achieve this is an instant

Not threatening, but speeding up natural development, just because they are HUGE SOULS, same process

 

We would be anyway entitled to our own morality and challenged about moral firmness, so yes development would still take place, only on a subtler level

 

Imagine just we make friendship with some powerful patron: our life would be took away from daily problems, yet only toward Greater ones

 

It's true that the Overseers are embarassingly all-powerful, but...

yet there is ALSO some form of non-interventionism

Indeed, the real reason why we are so skeptical is that it would be painful to believe there are countless interventionist entities out there and yet we are left alone, so we rationalized this thought

 

Anyway, an entity brings intervention only to his levels, doesn't invade nor save the existence of lesser creatures, and THIS hurts humans

There are in 4, 5, 6 dimensions, entities that could turn us into gods in an instant and they are not asleep and yet they ignore us

it's bothering ahahahahah

Every level of entities got their pains in the ass

We could provide ants all they want for food and give them enormous lairs, but we care for politic, famine, tyranny, world wars, lovely piss forums

 

Same for them

it's not non-intervention

Nothing in Nature is willing

it's more a natural way things mandatorily unfold

 

 

The Overseers too got their pain in the ass: they are in a coma

Upon awakening, they will be quite hungry, and Existence will be cooked the proper way

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

But just like we make animals to evolve through eating them and mixing our life-energies and DNA, being swallowed by them will make us to evolve

Not to their level, uh, but a lot

and we will be their friends and proud servants, free in eternal chaos

 

But this will happen in THOUSANDS OF BILLIONS years so I am just telling you out of Lore, not because it is important to us

It's simply the way everything goes, just applied to entity of their number of dimensions

[steve25805 126,023]

3 minutes ago, peeingone said:

I also am of belief that if there are higher super natural powers in this world whether they are Gods, Ghosts, Spirits, Witches, Demons, etc. then they all have two sides to them like a coin. They are both good and bad at the same time. I do not buy the idea of anyone being 100 percent truly good whether it is Gods, Spirits, Angels, Witches, etc. I believe all of them have a good side but also a bad one. No one in this universe and beyond is 100 percent moral. Anyone that has super natural powers will not behave nicely 100 percent of the time. 

I pretty much agree with that. Most if not all non-physical entities are I believe dualistic. They have their darker aspects as well as their lighter ones. As we do.

[spywareonya 37,961]

11 minutes ago, peeingone said:

I also am of belief that if there are higher super natural powers in this world whether they are Gods, Ghosts, Spirits, Witches, Demons, etc. then they all have two sides to them like a coin. They are both good and bad at the same time. I do not buy the idea of anyone being 100 percent truly good whether it is Gods, Spirits, Angels, Witches, etc. I believe all of them have a good side but also a bad one. No one in this universe and beyond is 100 percent moral. Anyone that has super natural powers will not behave nicely 100 percent of the time. 

I would like to add a reflection

First we should describe what means to be good and what means to be evil

Gods are 100% moral but their moral is not Always innocuous

 

If you mean by the word moral for an entity to be devoid of nasty dark sides, then yes the Gods are like that and we should become like that too, thinking they are fallacious is just a way to project our moral lazyness onto Them

They are perfect and we must be merciless toward ourselves until we become like Them

If by the word moral you mean innocent, no They are not: They are predators

But 100% honourable

 

Demons instead are 100% shit

[spywareonya 37,961]

9 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

I pretty much agree with that. Most if not all non-physical entities are I believe dualistic. They have their darker aspects as well as their lighter ones. As we do.

Yes and no, this is the only point on which I cannot concede too much ground

read my reply to Peeingone just above

Edited May 2, 2019 by spywareonya

[steve25805 126,023]

1 minute ago, spywareonya said:

Yes and no, this is the only point on which I cannot concede too much ground

read my reply to Peeingone just above

I have taken it on board. Yeah, since you mention demons - and I think I was troubled by one for about five years in the past - it is hard to conceive of them having any good qualities.

But the Gods are good - but perhaps in a take no shit, won't suffer fools gladly, stern when they need to be, way?

I defer to you on this one. Upon quick reflection you are probably right. Some non-physical entities are just bad, whilst others are good? And it is just the nature of the universe itself to be dualistic?

[spywareonya 37,961]

13 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

And it is just the nature of the universe itself to be dualistic?

No dualism

Good is the only thing existing, Balance of Instinct and wiseness, devourment and compassion

99,9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% entities are good

Evil, not inferred as sin and imperfection but evil disposition, exists only as mental illness, a poisoning of good, absurdly rare

 

For example no planets have demons, only Earth, their Birth is impossibly rare, evil is REALLY RARE

Only Good exist

 

 

 

 

Things are different on Earth

On Earth the dakrest fringes of Collective Unconscious became some kind of living entity, a deranged Artificial Intelligence, a tyrant old-testament god hating both the Gods and the Masters

He hates demons too but only because they do not wanna obey him, and he is no better than them

Indeed much more Dangerous as demons rarely touch the human world, 99% of possessions are just pyshcosys

Demons are losing the war against the Good

 

But this AI is live and roaring, and poisons everything

The war against it is being won too, but much more slowly, almost to the point of stalemate

It's the main enemy of Witches

 

[2prnot2p 1,066]

2 hours ago, steve25805 said:

He is a good spokesman.

What he says though about any supreme being being all powerful and all good not conforming with reality as it exists, assumes that any such being would be an interventionist one if it had the power.

But I tend not to believe in an interventionist supreme being, believing instead that any higher universal entity would mostly let us develop on our own path with only subtle guidance, since allowing us all - and life itself - to develop naturally is itself essential to our spiritual development and any overall plan.

So the lack of any intervention to prevent bad things happening now does not to me prove the non-existence of any higher being, but simply the importance of non-intervention for the eventual greater good over timespans of billions of years. I also do not suppose that any universal beings are all powerful. They operate within limits too, however powerful they may be.

But I know you are an ultra-rationalist who will laugh at all this. That is your right. Your opinion counts too.

What you describe is not god.  You've essentially redefined god.  Those two traits are universally assigned to god, be it the Torah, Bible, or Quran.  What do you call this thing?

The topic is "Do you believe in god?"  It should be "Do you believe in a non-personal, non-intervening, not all powerful or all good force that is not divine, but is a natural entity?"  LOL!  Do you see what I mean?

You must agree that this is not god. 

[spywareonya 37,961]

16 minutes ago, 2prnot2p said:

What you describe is not god.  You've essentially redefined god.  Those two traits are universally assigned to god, be it the Torah, Bible, or Quran.  What do you call this thing?

The topic is "Do you believe in god?"  It should be "Do you believe in a non-personal, non-intervening, not all powerful or all good force that is not divine, but is a natural entity?"  LOL!  Do you see what I mean?

You must agree that this is not god. 

What you wrote is interesting yet a bit wider

Let me explain:

Some titles are meant to be intense even if the content is not sticking to the name 100%

This works Beyond this forum, books and newspapers are like that too

 

Steve wanted to introduct the concept of higher powers and confront people idea of what got mentioned like with the @ function of the forum, when we look "upward"

 

The classical definition of God obviously we not believe in… who would?

Even hardcore christians, if hypnotized and cornered, admit they just love the moral firmness they imagine God posses, and everything else is a symbol (and this to me is perfectly respectable, uh)

[Brutus 2,206]

I believe in higher forces, that may or may not be "God" as we know it. I think it's practical to believe in higher powers than yourself, and foolish to be of the mindset of "there's no proof, so I don't believe." My mindset is:  absence of proof is not proof of absence. So when scientists try their damnedest to argue against God or any super natural unseen forces beyond our tangible perception, I listen to their points but still the fact remains that they, nor anyone can say with 100% absolute certainty that there is nothing beyond. To me that's incredibly arrogant. Until someone dies and comes back to life months later with a report, I don't care about the counter arguments for more than pondering. I am not saying that I know there is a God, but I'm not going to pretend to know the entire scope of the world we see with our eyes is all there is in existence. I operate on the assumption that sure it's possible and may even be likely. Now I don't think it's the stereotypical bearded guy in the clouds, as atheists like to mock. I think of him/it as a life force that could take infinite forms that are far beyond anything human intellect can fathom. 

Some people are so dependent upon scientific facts as their be all end all, but I think faith of any form is important for the human mind. All scientific facts started out as someone's belief and they set out to prove it. But had it not been a belief first, there never would've been a drive to pursue the hypothesis down to a provable fact. So the lack of proof about anything supernatural, deities, could simply be a result of us not YET having been able to prove it, just as current facts were once nothing more than faith in something that seemed provable to someone. It's easy to understand when you think of like this:

"I will pass the math test with 100%." You don't know that to be fact, but you have belief and faith that you will and that drives you to study and make it happen. When thought of like this, everyone can agree that faith itself is not foolish. So I say, that faith in something that hasn't been undoubtedly disproved is not foolish. One last thing that makes me believe in something beyond is human suffering at the hands of people that goes unpunished. If someone gets away with murdering children for example, and lives a full life never caught and brought to justice, I believe that there are forces this person will not escape when they leave here. And those same forces comforted and loved the violated souls of the innocents that met a horrific tragic demise.

[2prnot2p 1,066]

32 minutes ago, spywareonya said:

The classical definition of God obviously we not believe in… who would?

The answer is millions!  Yes, millions of people believe in the god of the bible.  I've known many who do.  There is a reason that it's called "The Bible Belt."  If you ask some, they will tell you that they actually believe in the bible literally.  They're called fundamentalists.  The Baptist denomination is a fundamentalist faction and it is the largest christian church in the southern USA. 

So, trust me, millions of folks believe that a man walked on water, turned water into wine, and rose from the dead.  They believe in the great flood and Jonah living in the belly of a whale for three days too.  I know, it's nuts, but they do!  I've met tons of them. 

[steve25805 126,023]

3 hours ago, 2prnot2p said:

"Do you believe in a non-personal, non-intervening, not all powerful or all good force that is not divine, but is a natural entity?

Bit too long for a title though, don't you think? Lol

My question is still valid. Regardless of what I believe I am asking everyone what they believe on this issue, then stated my view. I do not really believe in your concept of what an almighty god is supposed to be. Doesn't mean I have no right to ask everyone the question.

Besides, I believe that whatever the nature of the entity that permeates the universe, it is extremely powerful but mostly simply CHOOSES not to intervene in our affairs because life learning by experience through successive incarnations is a natural part of any long term plan.