Pete2304

The very nature of the panicky approach adopted by local authorities is in itself offensive to both Muslims and Christians because both religions essentially preach peach and tolerance. Muslim mates of mine either celebrate Christmas in the same way we do or are just glad of the extra days off work but not a one of them would want us not to and each and every one of them finds it somewhat bemusing when am overly PC stance is taken. I have Xmas cards from Muslim friends but then I also enjoyed celebrating Eid a couple of years back when I spent time with a friend's family.

One of my Muslim mates absolutely hates Xmas. But that's because he bought his wife a coffee machine two years back and it went down like a lead balloon!

Benefits are not always pitiful. The sanctions imposed, far too freely by people sat in an office who have no care whatsoever for the welfare of the person on the other end of the button they are clicking, are dreadful. In some cases, even fatal for the most vulnerable who have nowhere else to turn. Still, I have also seen first hand people who have suddenly become alcoholics or depressed and have worked the system to the point of being in a fairly comfortable position.

I myself had a dreadful experience with benefits two years ago. Having been diagnosed with cancer, I was asked to attend an interview to prove I was poorly. I was then told I would have to wait up to 8 weeks before any money was made available to me. They did backdate it all and sure enough I was paid allowances to cover both myself and my rent but had I gone into that period with not a penny in my pocket I honestly don't know how I would have survived.

Not all Muslims wish to see the hands chopped off those who commit robbery, nor do they wish to see gay people or adulterers stoned to death. That's why so many Muslims are fleeing areas where ISIS have gained control. What is it about this point that so many people are struggling to comprehend.

I don't doubt that there are some, of the more radical immigrants who wish to impose Sharia Law withing their communities. There are here as well and I wholeheartedly disagree with it. However, most don't. There are right wing sections of society in Eastern Europe who would gladly resurrect the policies of Nazi Germany but thankfully, they are a tiny minority.

This board, and society as a whole really needs to stop singling out the extremes and then using that as an excuse for blanket condemnation. Your experience in the butchers sounds....extreme. If one of my Muslim friends happened to own a butchers and you walked in and asked for a pork steak I can assure you he would not wave a meat cleaver at you.

As I've stated, many pages ago (and probably had a few less grey hairs than I've no doubt grown this last couple of months while this argument has been going on!), Muslim friends of mine put up Xmas trees and buy their kids presents. They may not believe in Jesus but they just like the idea of treating their kids and enjoying the festive season. I also have Muslim friends who will come to the pub for a game of pool and to watch the football. They may choose to not drink but that's up to them. Do they sound like the kind of people who would hate the West, would wave meat cleavers around or run riot in the streets?

You are absolutely correct. Also, sadly, even with the increased minimum wage, in many cases it even makes more sense to stay on benefits than take the work a lot of time. When you take out travel costs, lunches etc etc people can find themselves in a position where they can either sit at home all day, every day or do 200 hours a month for an extra £200. Now much as I believe people should work if they can, whenever they can, it would be something you'd have to consider if you were in that position. It isn't that (in most cases but not all), people don't want to work though I agree.

I think it's noticeable that the leave campaign has steered itself, certainly recently, away from a lot of the fiscal issues because I don't think, facts on paper, that's an argument they could win. Not to say they don't have valid arguments though.

For UKIP, this whole debate is like Christmas, Easter and all their birthdays rolled into one because come what may, they will rightly say that a massive percentage of the country has shown their desire to leave the EU and you are right many working class people have been driven into the arms of UKIP.

In terms of exploitation, there are clearly cases of that. Mr. Ashley being hauled before MPs last week is probably the biggest culprit. There are though, quite genuine cases of companies who are on the borderline of bankruptcy and still operating who cannot afford to pay more than the minimum wage who truly cannot attract interest from local people and not all these employers which take advantage of their employees, they just want to survive. No doubt the small businesses are the ones who would suffer first should we leave because of their lack of cash in the bank and therefore time to start re-negotiating deals and waiting for tax levels etc to be sorted out.

As it stands tonight it's 1/4 stay and 2/1 leave with the bookmakers but that is a different picture to the one we saw 12 months ago where you could have gotten yourself a bet to leave at 6/1 so the margins are closing and daily by the looks of the polls.

Ok joker, in the countries where such actions take place, should you stand up against this you would find yourself stoned to death or worse, as well. So that covers that.

In civilised countries, should you actually look on the Internet or pick up a newspaper once in a while, you would see that there is widespread condemnation from the Muslim community when any terror attack takes place. I did also notice today that the leader of a Baptist church in Orlando wholly condoned the attack in Orlando on account of it being against gay people.

So.....riddle me this.....if all Muslims are bad because one Muslim man attacked a gay night club, does that mean all Christians are bad because one Christian stated he was glad that gay people were murdered in cold blood because of their sexuality?

Steve, everything you have said is completely correct and pretty much echoes my own thoughts and also the way I will be voting. I don't have a postal vote but will be voting remain but like you, I have spent some time mulling it over.

The issue I have had is that a lot of the working classes who will be voting to leave will be doing so for the wrong reasons, not really having any grasp of the issues at stake.

I must have a crystal ball because after the post I made about The Sun a couple of days ago, they have today come out as fully behind the leave campaign and I think it will make a difference.

Whilst there is an element of migrant labour having taken a lot of jobs in this country, I have also read and listened to the thoughts of people at the top level of large companies who say they simply cannot attract any interest from English people for the jobs they are advertising. I also read an interview in the Guardian (I think but not certain), with a lady who owned an orchard in the south west producing organic cider. She pays the full minimum wage and employs seasonal workers on six month contracts. She said this year, of the 40 pickers and packers jobs she advertised, she received four applicants from English people. She was very clear about the fact that were it not for her ability to employ migrant workers she would be out of business.

It is a very, very tough issue and whilst I had always intended to vote remain and will be doing so, I'm surprised at how much I've swayed from being absolutely certain to being only just sure I'm making the right choice.

Saw the case of the ex-pats who went all the way to the appeal courts in Brussels and ultimately lost. As far as they are concerned, I think was a case of too much spare time and money on their hands and was probably an idea discussed over a sangria or five one afternoon that really went a bit far.

I think, maybe it's right that you shouldn't be able to vote it you have chosen to live and/or work predominately outside of the country.

I am very happy about the fact that if I so chose, I can up sticks and move to anywhere inside the EU and in the past have done exactly that. I will be voting stay purely on the basis of my belief that the remain campaign has proven that the country as a whole will be better off financially that way.

The issue of Turkish migrants is something that needs consideration but, should we leave the EU politically, it doesn't suddenly mean we won't be still admitting refugees on humanitarian grounds or for that matter people who wish to migrate here to work be that temporarily or permanently.

I've just spent half an hour reading condemnations from Muslims leaders both in the Orlando area and worldwide. This man was mentally ill, he had attacked his wife and had been investigated previously because of his extremist views. His ex wife in fact states that he had a bi-polar personality. And yet this fuckwit was allowed to buy weapons.

America seems to be horribly divided at the minute which is sad because here, when dreadful events have taken place in the UK, going back all through history, we tend to stand as one. When Lee Rigby was killed, Tory, Labour and Lib Dems stood as one. Nobody used it as an opportunity for political gain.

What on earth does this have to do with the period of Nazi Germany from 70 years ago? I'm not even sure you quite understand the point you are trying to make, I certainly don't. Oh, and try being a little more liberal with your use of the space bar.

They aren't doing it to the religion in general, because they don't represent the religion in general. Despite me asking on numerous occasions how it can be explained that, if all Muslims are bad, it is a Muslim army who are slowly but surely ridding the world of ISIS, nobody has answered that.

I have said till I'm blue in the face that I hate terrorism, I hate the inhuman attitude of those who carry out terror attacks under any guise be that religious or otherwise. I cannot imagine what it is like to be involved in a terror attack, or to suffer because of the actions of these brainwashed idiots.

I agree on so many points but I will not keep quiet when it's been claimed that all Muslims are bad, they must all be discriminated against and treated with suspicion. We might as well ask the South Africans to resume their policies on which part of the bus you are allowed to sit on.

In this particular instance, the people who have argued about the right of American citizens to be allowed to buy a gun are now upset that he's used it in the wrong way for one reason only.... because this particular nut job was a brown man. So on that basis all Islam is evil. Take a look at the last 20 years of mass shootings in America and apply the same logic. You'd have to condemn pretty much every religion in the country.

If a Christian nut job goes crazy and starts shooting people because he heard voices from Jesus then he's either shot dead at the scene or locked up for life. But that doesn't mean all Christians are like that of course. When a brown man goes crazy though, all Muslims are evil. Good logic that.

Yes and I can find you plenty more examples of terrorist behaviour, could write pages and pages filled with examples of disgraceful behaviour by people who associate themselves with Islam. Does that cover every single man, woman and child who are Muslim though? Honestly, does it?

And yet if you hadn't sold the man the guns in the first place? We are just going round in endless circles here and are never going to get anywhere but the irony will be lost on millions of Trump supporters who will see these awful events as vindication of his immigration policy.

We won't have any gun free zones in the UK. You just get arrested and sent to prison if you are found to be carrying one. Simple policy, but we like it.

I am though, also getting a little tired of all the ridiculous notion, and all the criticism I have received by simply stating that out of a couple of billion Muslims worldwide, maybe they aren't all violent terrorist loving extremists.

The counter argument over what must be a couple of months now has basically been, they are all bad.

Logic would probably dictate that I'm right. If we've really got 2 billion people on the planet who are intent on war against anyone who doesn't follow Islam, I'm yet to see it. Logic would dictate that maybe the blanket bigotry displayed during this and other threads is possibly a little wide of the mark.

Listen, I will state right now, again but just to clarify my position. What happened is beyond words and is deeply upsetting. I do not have any sympathy and nothing but feelings of utter contempt towards anyone who would wish to do something like that. All I have ever said is you can't judge every member of any group by the actions of a few.

We are at war with terrorism, and as I've said as well on this thread a few times, Isis are screwed as a military force and you are both quite right, this is the next step now. Euro 2016 ongoing in France and there is a deep undertone of fear that an attack will take place but we have to carry on as normal because if we don't, they've won.

However, the reason ISIS are finished (or on their way to being) as a military force is because an army of Muslims (in coalition with air strikes from NATO) has all but defeated them and yesterday cut off their final supply route to Europe.

I've travelled to football matches where out of the 3,000 of us that went to an away game, 20 or so thugs and hooligans calling themselves fans have started fights. Does that mean I'm a thug and a hooligan? Because like 99% of the rest of us that we're there I was disgusted and was more than happy when they were arrested and extremely pleased when they were subsequently identifies by cctv and given life bans from following the football team that is very close to my heart.

You may have expected me to comment but as did I with you.

You can't (and nor can I), have it both ways. If Obama had met less resistance and if Clinton is elected and carries on with the proposals, that individual, who was an American citizen, would not have been allowed to buy those weapons.

Of course, the flip side is that you would state that Trump's proposal of a blanket ban on Muslims entering the country is vindicated by this and no doubt he will be all over this. But you cannot have it both ways Egwalrus. As a country, you collectively are happy with selling this man weapons.

One fruitcake doesn't account for a whole bakery. How many Muslim leaders have condemned the attacks? I'm guessing more than the one dispicable individual who carried it out?

What in the bloody hell is a gun free zone exactly? Sounds about as much use as a chocolate fire guard.

There was an attack on a soldier in London, must be getting on for two years ago now by two radical (and from what came out in court, mentally ill) Terrorists, associating themselves with ISIS. They were armed with machetes and butchered a man in broad daylight in the most horrific manner. God help anyone else nearby if those two had been able to get their hands on firearms but that's another argument.

Within 24 hours they had been condemned and denounced by nigh on every high profile Muslim cleric in the country.

I'm not condoning the utterly disgusting events of last night but you simply cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

Yeah I was wondering when this would start. There is of course the option of looking at as maybe if he hadn't been allowed to buy the guns in the first place......

And if I'm not mistaken, haven't gay people been targeted by right wing Christian groups as well?

One arse hole doesn't speak for everyone nor does he represent the views of every Muslim. How about you take a look (and I haven't yet) to see how many Muslims are condemning the awful events of last night because I guarantee you will find plenty.

The girl is stunning. About time more women in the public eye accepted being curvy is ok. She's down to earth, funny as hell and hot. What more could you want from a woman?

Since we aren't allowed to find out what three totally random people may or may not have been up to that they may or may not wish to keep quiet......

If I was, hypothetically in America and I happened to google oh I don't know, say Alan Pardew, erm......Robbie Keane and oh bloody hell.....errrrr Sully Muntari, might I discover something about their personal lives or might I wish to google other totally random names?

Take a look at what Muhmmad Ali had to say about terrorists.....

I'm not using it to excuse the acts of some Muslims and whether you like it or not the KKK associate themselves with Christianity. ISIS is also not a religion but the associate themselves with Islam.

Have you ever seen one post where I have excused the acts of terrorism committed by ISIS or anyone else? All I have ever said is that you can't judge all people by the actions of a few.

We both agree on so many points, the main difference being that I can't possibly conclude logically that because of a small minority, all Muslims are to be viewed with contempt, suspicion and discriminated against.

ISIS are likely to be defeated as a military force within the next 6 months. They are being defeated by an army whose overwhelming majority of soldiers are Muslims. They are putting their lives on the line and fighting in what is currently the most dangerous environment on earth because they feel it is worth it to stop the extremists.

And sharks. I'm not all about the sharks. But then again Australia did give the world Holly Valance and for that I will always be grateful!