Help me out with my research!

[LadySilver 46]

Hey! Thanks for checking out my thread. 

First of all, regarding my research in general: I’m currently working on my Bachelor’s degree in Interdisciplinary Studies with concentrations in International Studies and Psychology. Part of the honours program requires writing a 60 page thesis. The question I’m speaking to is: what facilitates health in the lives of those who experience paraphilia? In other words, what helps people with fetishes/kinks make good choices and feel good about their sexuality? 

What I’m looking for from you: My third chapter concerns the role of online communities like this one and how they both help people and can cause problems. I wanted to speak to people who use/have used these avenues to get their perspective on the topic. I also have a few questions about what health means for you in general. 

Answer any or all of them and give only as much detail as you're comfortable with (this isn't meant to be a formal survey). If I have any desire to use your perspective in my writing I will ask your permission directly and give you as much information as you'd like about the context it would be used in (and please say no if that's not okay with you!), otherwise assume anything you say will only be used to educate me. If you have any questions about that feel free to ask. 

How long have you been here? Has the way you’ve interacted with it changed over time? Why do you think that is? 

How did you find this community? Why did you decide to stay? 

What do you use it for these days? How often do you use it? Are there reasons you would find yourself here more often? Less often? 

In what ways has the community been a helpful resource for you? What kinds of people have you met? What have you learned since joining? 

In what ways (if any) has the community been unhelpful for you? How do you think any problems would be best resolved? 

Would you recommend that other people with a paraphilia (fetish) use a site like this? What would you tell them are the best parts? What might you warn them about? 

And, more generally: 

What does healthy sexuality mean to you? What are some of the key signs someone is healthy? Unhealthy? 

Do you feel like your sexuality is healthy right now? Why/why not? 

What are things that have been steps in the right direction for you (in terms of the health of your sexuality)? What things have been obstacles? 

Are there things you feel you need more of to be healthier? Less of? 

Responses are okay here in this thread, but also feel free to private message me if that's more comfortable.

There is plenty to look at here, so take your time answering whatever you can (sending in responses over a longer period or sending me a document with a longer response is more than welcome). This information is for my final chapter, so it will be many months before I’ll need to put this information together. Thanks so much for your time! 

HG

[steve25805 126,028]

I have been here since the very early days of the forum, joining at the beginning of 2014. Before that I was prominent on another pee fetish forum from about 2010.

In the early days I posted a lot of stories and was active throughout the forum but more recently have found it harder to become motivated to write stories and I now focus more upon finding and posting pics. Part of the reason for this is that one of my newer meds suppresses libido so I find it harder to get sexually interested enough to write stories. The fact that I am 54 and not getting any younger probably doesn't help. But the hours I spend seeking out and posting pics still seems to gradually work for me which is why this has become my main focus. You may have noticed that I also participate by being a forum mod.

I have found this community very friendly. We are more than just a bunch of pee fetishists and a bit like a group of best buds who talk about so much more than our fetish interests. Indeed, those who only want to talk about pee in the chatroom are generally regarded as bores and are frowned upon. We are a community of friends as much as anything, and the best of us genuinely care about each other.

I visit this forum almost every day, partly because I am a mod but mostly out of personal interest in the subject matter and a genuine interest in my fellow forum contributors. There was a period in the past when a fellow mod behaving in a very troll like and damaging manner - who eventually had to leave - was making my participation difficult. Had I not been a mod I might well have left at that point, but that is over now. Pretty much the busier this forum is - the more there is to read and respond to - the more time I spend here, especially if I in turn get responses. If it is quiet and less has been posted I might not stay so long.

The community here is helpful in that it enables me to interact with an array of different characters who all have a sexual interest in common, one often mocked or derided by wider society. That has value. And I make genuine friends here. On my previous forum I met someone who has become a real life friend whom I meet up with regularly. What have I learned since joining this and the previous forum? That I am truly not alone in my desires. There is a whole community of us.

This community has in no way been unhelpful to me, except in the sense that it uses up some of my spare time that might - in the opinion of some - be more fruitfully spent doing housework or other stuff. I definitely find less time to read books now.

I would strongly recommend that others with similar sexual interests join a forum like this. It helped me considerably. I grew up in pre-internet days, feeling alone and isolated in my interests, unable to reach out to like-minded people, and aware that most people around me would think of me as a pervert in a most derogatory sense. I grew up with a deep sense of shame about my interests which impacted very negatively upon my sex life. I tended to avoid much in the way of sexual interaction. It is only by finding and joining forums such as this soon after going online for the first time, that I was able to reach out to others like me and gain acceptance. Consequently the shame I carried inside for so long has now disappeared. Not quite loud and proud about it in real life because I know many will not understand, but I no longer feel any need to be ashamed of who or what I am.

The thing to be wary of about any online forum - and this one is no exception - is that it is very easy for people to adopt false identities and claim to be something they are not. 70 year old grannies pretending to be 25 year old stunners. Men pretending to be women or vice versa. We have had cases of people lifting pics off the internet and trying to pass them off as themselves. Until we know with some degree of certainty we can never know with any certainty at all that everyone is who they say they are.

Healthy sexuality? For me it is consenting and harmless sexual activity between consenting adults or even alone. And that includes many consenting adult fetishes like urophilia. It is simply another legitimate sexual activity choice, like oral sex or anal sex. Being a fetishist is essentially no different to being gay or lesbian in that it is just the way you are wired up. It only becomes problematical if the fetish does not involve consent or adults, or does real harm. I would argue that someone enjoying pissing on somebody who enjoys being pissed on by that person is essentially harmless and nobody else's business. Mutual consent is the key to urophiliac acceptability.

Is my sexuality healthy right now? In all honesty it probably never really has been. You see, whilst some people can engage in fetishistic activity for fun as a choice without needing it to get off, some actually cannot get off without the fetish being involved. I fall into this latter category. Vanilla sex, intercourse, oral sex, whatever, interests me relatively little. It is the pissing that does it for me. I cannot really get off very easily without the pissing, and to do so at all I need to be thinking about pissing, with the actual sex act being a de facto masturbatory adjunct to the main interest of some pissing fantasy in my head. I recognise that this is unbalanced and I could only truly find sexual contentment with a lady wired up the same way, but I have long since given up hoping for that and am content with being single. I have been this way all my life and at the age of 54 accept this and have no real desire to change.

For all my life my fixation upon pissing over and above vanilla sex has made sexual relationships difficult to sustain. And for much of my adult life inner shame prevented me from actively coming out about my fetish to partners and thus hindered any possible search for anyone sexually compatible. The internet and the destruction of shame this allowed came too far into my life to really change that because by then I had come to terms with not having a lifelong sexual companion. If such a person were ever to come my way it would likely be through a forum such as this but we all often live so far apart. Friends with benefits are more likely and more standard. That suits me because I have become a set in my ways singleton.

I do nevertheless like my sexuality right now because - decline in libido notwithstanding - I enjoy it. And am naturally loathe to want to give up something I enjoy which harms no one.

Hope that helps.

[LadySilver 46]

Steve! This is wonderful. Thanks for responding. I have some follow-up questions you're welcome to answer or completely disregard. 

1 hour ago, steve25805 said:

You may have noticed that I also participate by being a forum mod.

What does that role entail for you? What do you see your responsibility to the community as? 

 

1 hour ago, steve25805 said:

the best of us genuinely care about each other.

If someone is perceived as not caring about others, how do others in the community react? 

 

1 hour ago, steve25805 said:

That has value.

Amen to that! (Can you tell I grew up in the church? haha) 

 

1 hour ago, steve25805 said:

I met someone who has become a real life friend whom I meet up with regularly.

What is it like to have a deep friendship with someone who has the same sexual interest? Is it something you think is important in developing as a person with a unique sexual interest? 

1 hour ago, steve25805 said:

except in the sense that it uses up some of my spare time that might - in the opinion of some - be more fruitfully spent doing housework or other stuff. I definitely find less time to read books now.

Does the amount you visit the site ever feel out of your control? In other words, is the fact that you read less now simply a new phase of life in which you're choosing to prioritize the community, or do some other things you do ever feel consumed by how much time you spend on the sight? (I understand that this would be a delicate issue for me, so don't touch it unless you'd like to go there) 

1 hour ago, steve25805 said:

I have been this way all my life and at the age of 54 accept this and have no real desire to change.

First of all: I think that's completely fair. 

It's stated pretty widely in the scholarship on non-normative sexuality that if a person can only be sexually aroused by their non-normative interest than that is objectively pathological and should be treated. I am skeptical of this claim as, and you've put it well, some people are content with their experience and aren't doing any harm to themselves or others. Is there anything you might add in response to this claim? 

All of this was very helpful. Thanks again for sharing your experience. 

HG

[steve25805 126,028]

3 minutes ago, LadySilver said:

All of this was very helpful. Thanks again for sharing your experience.

Thank you. I promise I will respond to your follow on questions, just not right now as it is 10.22pm already here and I must sleep soon for work in the morning. Probably tomorrow evening.

[LadySilver 46]

13 minutes ago, steve25805 said:

Thank you. I promise I will respond to your follow on questions, just not right now as it is 10.22pm already here and I must sleep soon for work in the morning. Probably tomorrow evening.

Sounds good to me! I'm calling it a night schoolwork-wise anyway 🙂 

Look forward to hearing from you!

HG

[steve25805 126,028]

@LadySilver

My role as a mod is essentially to help with the smooth running of the forum and helping to keep it a happy place. There are other mods too doing the same. I might respond to enquiries or queries and try and be helpful. Sometimes someone might be causing problems, eg sending unsolicited dick pics to the female members or something like that. If this is reported to me I will have a word with the offender and that generally suffices. We have rules designed to keep this place a happy ship and occasionally someone might break them and this will get reported to the mods quite often. It then falls to us to deal with it but we prefer friendly words rather than throwing our weight around. Apart from obvious spammers I personally have never banned anyone but rule breakers know we can and that knowledge seems to be enough mostly. Essentially my role involves ensuring that rules are adhered to for the good of all but mostly being a facilitator rather than an enforcer. And to be fair most rule breaking is inadvertent and is often the result of a relative newbie not having bothered to read the rules and thus breaking one without realising. One example is that we have a ban on scat material here but if a newbie has not read that he might not be aware of it. Deletion of any offending posts in combination with a friendly word is sufficient the vast majority of time.

If someone is not particularly interested in or caring about the other members, it tends to show in minimal activity. They might show their appreciation for pics and vids occasionally or might just lurk, but in doing any of this they present no problems and in no way interfere with the happy vibe. It only becomes a problem when they not only don't care to care about others but see them only as masturbatory tools, examples of which behaviour can include unsolicited dick pics, bombarding ladies with requests for pics, or constantly butting into conversations to talk about pee cos they are only interested in everybody else as masturbatory aids. When they do these things it can become a problem and words need to be had. Some have had to be banned from the chatroom. Worst case scenario would be having to ban someone entirely but I personally have never had to do that yet. It rarely goes that far. How do others react? If someone is mostly just lurking or merely posting the occasional snippet of appreciation they mostly fly under the radar and no one is bothered by them. It is when they start bothering people in a negative way that people become irritated and report it to mods.

A deep friendship with someone who has the same interests? Well on one level it is liberating because we both know exactly what floats each others' boats and can talk openly about it in a way we cannot with most of our friends. Yet the friend I met on a pee forum and I - whilst both being into pee - are actually very sexually incompatible. She is mostly into desperation and control and gets off on the idea of allowing a man to get uncontrollably desperate, being in control of when he can pee. But this is not my thing at all. I on the other hand have a thing about girls peeing in naughty places for fun, eg all over the kitchen floor. But that is not her thing at all. We have some degree of mutual interest in golden showers but this is not a primary interest for her and it only really works for her in a framework of dominance and control which really isn't my thing. So although we first got to know each other with thoughts of friends with benefits type scenarios, we kind of both tacitly decided we were not into the same things and remained just good friends - without the benefits.

Sometimes I can spend hours on this site but it is only because I want to. I do not feel it is out of control. You see if I get caught up in the sexual arousal thing in any kind of potentially addictive way, I know that all I have to do to close my interest down is to masturbate to a climax. Then I find it very easy to walk away. I am thus - spare time permitting - very much in control of how much or how little time I spend here. I feel I have free will in that sense.

I have read before that paraphiliacs who need paraphiliac activity to get off are generally regarded by the psychological powers that be as being in need of treatment. But if that person is happy with his or her condition and is causing no problems, why should this be so? Surely if a person is doing no harm or causing no threat, whether or not he or she requires treatment should be down to them. It is nobody else's business. 

Having said that though, before discovering pee forums which have been so positively and therapeutically beneficial for me, I was very lacking in contentment due to the intense shame I felt. I tended to compartmentalise it, otherwise I would have been too sewn up tight psychologically to ever get off and all sorts of difficulties might then have ensued. Repression and self-loathing would have been dangerous things to a healthy mind. In essence, I was torn between the me that wanted to be this moral person with deep values, and this deep compartmentalised sense of shame. It's conscious effect was to undermine my self confidence generally, contributing I suspect to the anxiety disorder I developed and suffered from. It is worthy of note that my anxiety began to be successfully banished along with my shame when I discovered these forums. So I suppose yeah I could have used a lot of help back then but would have been too embarrassed to come clean about the sexual core of the problem. Today I don't feel I need or want help. I have come to terms with who or what I am with no shame and am happy in my own skin. Anyone telling me I need help today would be given short shrift.

[steve25805 126,028]

No response, eh? Perhaps there is such a thing as sharing too much information?

Am I too open about myself? Honest opinions from anyone welcome.

 

[Paulypeeps 5,287]

Perhaps some people do not want to answer on an open forum, perhaps if private messaging was possible it might help, or perhaps if e-mail was possible?

I tried to send a PM but got a message that inbox is full!

[LadySilver 46]

12 hours ago, steve25805 said:

No response, eh? Perhaps there is such a thing as sharing too much information?

Am I too open about myself? Honest opinions from anyone welcome.

Not at all, Steve! I've just been a little short on time. I hope to read and respond to you this morning yet once I have my ducks in a row. 

[LadySilver 46]

2 hours ago, Paulypeeps said:

Perhaps some people do not want to answer on an open forum, perhaps if private messaging was possible it might help, or perhaps if e-mail was possible?

Private message is absolutely an option! If that isn't working for you I can make email work 🙂

[LadySilver 46]

@Paulypeeps the site is saying you can't receive messages? Feel free to shoot me an email at [email protected].

Edited March 17, 2020 by LadySilver

[LadySilver 46]

On 3/15/2020 at 3:59 PM, steve25805 said:

Some have had to be banned from the chatroom.

Fair enough. I wonder, though, what happens for these people after they have to leave. Care to speculate? 

 

On 3/15/2020 at 3:59 PM, steve25805 said:

Surely if a person is doing no harm or causing no threat, whether or not he or she requires treatment should be down to them. It is nobody else's business.

I totally see what you're saying here and agree. I think things get especially fuzzy when you have people who believe they have the moral high ground as far as what their definition of health or flourishing is. For me, part of being healthy is to have a sexuality integrated into your whole being, to have a deep reverence for yourself and others both in and out of a sexual encounter. None of those things require an interest in 'normative' sexual practice. Other people's definitions are different, and because they appear to be in the majority this has informed a lot of practice as far caring for people experiencing paraphilic disorder. Part of my thesis is asking the question: is that the best way? 

Another big question I'll be looking at, in part with the help of this research, is the use of communities like this one on a larger scale to help people. Like you say, and in my own experience as well, being able to talk about your experience with people that get it reduces one's sense of shame immensely (not that I can prove it, but that's what I've seen across the board in my conversations). What if we could get the word out about these spaces to more people that need them? What if we could combine the benefits of a therapeutic approach and a community approach? Would that make it less likely that people end up in a dark place? 

Thanks again for sharing your experience. It has been very helpful. Sorry for the late reply! 

HG

[steve25805 126,028]

16 hours ago, LadySilver said:

Fair enough. I wonder, though, what happens for these people after they have to leave. Care to speculate?

If they are banned from the chatroom they are still able to access other parts of the forum. And since a tiny number have been banned fro the chatroom purely for wanting to talk about pee all the time and ignoring what everyone else is talking about - essentially using people as masturbatory aids and nothing more - they can find plenty elsewhere on the forum to get off on. As for those banned entirely - apart from spammers a vanishingly small number - it is generally for persistent rule breaking or negativity. What happens to them after that has never really been my concern. They probably look at a lot of porn. This forum has a very friendly and welcoming vibe which is essential. But to keep it that way rule breakers and negative influences need to be cracked down upon. Most only need to be spoken to. Very few end up being banned.

16 hours ago, LadySilver said:

I totally see what you're saying here and agree. I think things get especially fuzzy when you have people who believe they have the moral high ground as far as what their definition of health or flourishing is. For me, part of being healthy is to have a sexuality integrated into your whole being, to have a deep reverence for yourself and others both in and out of a sexual encounter. None of those things require an interest in 'normative' sexual practice. Other people's definitions are different, and because they appear to be in the majority this has informed a lot of practice as far caring for people experiencing paraphilic disorder. Part of my thesis is asking the question: is that the best way? 

Another big question I'll be looking at, in part with the help of this research, is the use of communities like this one on a larger scale to help people. Like you say, and in my own experience as well, being able to talk about your experience with people that get it reduces one's sense of shame immensely (not that I can prove it, but that's what I've seen across the board in my conversations). What if we could get the word out about these spaces to more people that need them? What if we could combine the benefits of a therapeutic approach and a community approach? Would that make it less likely that people end up in a dark place? 

Thanks again for sharing your experience. It has been very helpful. Sorry for the late reply! 

It is very easy for those who don't have a fetish themselves to take the moral high ground over those that do, including in the psychological profession. I see this as little different in essence to straight people in former decades taking the moral high ground over the supposed "perversion" of homosexuality, which used to happen a lot. "Live and let live" should be what an enlightened and free society lives by.

Communities like this certainly help people to live happily with their fetishes, which is beneficial both to them and to wider society if those fetishes are non-harmful and between consenting adults. The benefits to individuals are obvious, but wider society gains by such fetishists being healthy in mind and spirit and therefore fully functioning members of society at large, less likely to be a burden through a variety of mental health issues.

How a community like this could become also a therapeutic hub equipped with psychologists and all is difficult to envisage. Psychologists would probably have to start up their own "safe space" forum, and largely leave the running of it and moderation of it to fetishists themselves. But it would then be in competition with us, a forum run by and for pee fetishists, and we would always be likely to have the edge because our primary purpose is to non-judgementally allow people to have fun. Therapeutic benefits are a happy added benefit, but we do not exist primarily with that aim. There is a danger that any forum that does will appear way too clinical to gain wide acceptance. But somewhere where people can go where trained psychologists also exist, where they can speak about any issues would be valuable.

But if any psychologists do want to join a forum such as this - provided they can be positive and non-judgemental about us because we have rules against both negativity and judgementalism - they would be welcome.

[wjimmy 1,009]

On 3/14/2020 at 10:18 PM, LadySilver said:

It's stated pretty widely in the scholarship on non-normative sexuality that if a person can only be sexually aroused by their non-normative interest than that is objectively pathological and should be treated. I am skeptical of this claim as, and you've put it well, some people are content with their experience and aren't doing any harm to themselves or others. 

That makes a lot of sense to me. If a sexual - or other - obsession seriously disrupts one's life then, yes, that may be a problem. But if somebody merely has a kink, however intensely experienced, that does no harm to others or themselves, I really see no problem. The medical profession, of course,  has a long history of 'pathologizing' behaviours outside the mainstream, conceived by the 'experts' as normal'. 

I wonder, however, how married couples come to terms with a fetish - e.g. some aspect of pee - when one partner doesn't share that fetish and may, in fact, be repelled by it. That must present a significant challenge for couples at times. 

[LadySilver 46]

On 3/18/2020 at 3:07 AM, steve25805 said:

It is very easy for those who don't have a fetish themselves to take the moral high ground over those that do, including in the psychological profession.

Ain't that the truth! Boy is it easy to tell the scholarship on this subject is not written by people who experience paraphilia or, at the very least, do and somehow don't identify very much with the people they're trying to help. 

On 3/18/2020 at 3:07 AM, steve25805 said:

"Live and let live" should be what an enlightened and free society lives by.

I think that's a valid opinion, but I don't even think we need to believe that to prioritize the health of everyone's sexuality. You can still draw moral lines in the sand about sexuality, you just can't leave a person with task of removing a whole part of their sexuality from themselves or expecting them to modify not harmful behaviour. I'm not a professional... but I get the feeling there's no way that's healthy. 

On 3/18/2020 at 3:07 AM, steve25805 said:

we would always be likely to have the edge because our primary purpose is to non-judgmentally allow people to have fun.

You are probably right about this. 

On 3/18/2020 at 3:07 AM, steve25805 said:

Therapeutic benefits are a happy added benefit, but we do not exist primarily with that aim.

I wonder if people would have any interest in taking part in both kinds of community? Spending some time in one made for 'fun' and devoting some time to explicitly talking about their experiences, getting and giving advice, listening to professional perspectives and educating them... could be kinda cool, though it may be less practical than a site like this which seems to both really well (though I guess I can't speak for how good the 'fun' stuff is 'cause I'm staying away from porn haha). 

On 3/18/2020 at 3:07 AM, steve25805 said:

There is a danger that any forum that does will appear way too clinical to gain wide acceptance.

This is definitely also a concern. Even I, someone who has a lot of respect for therapists and other practitioners, would be a little reluctant to begin talking about my experience with a therapist simply because they're an outsider and they might not get it. Integrating these two things would have an inevitable messy transition period for that reason. 

On 3/18/2020 at 3:07 AM, steve25805 said:

But somewhere where people can go where trained psychologists also exist, where they can speak about any issues would be valuable.

This was a little more my vision. Something like inviting a therapist or two to be a part of and serve the community's needs. They'd maybe have a little corner of the site where they share resources, have the benefit of doing research like I'm doing to better understand paraphilia and the people that experience it and make themselves available to people to talk about things like mental health or even to help mods and staff through difficult periods. If it worked, I think this would be awesome. 

Thanks, as usual, Steve, for your insights! 

Edited March 19, 2020 by LadySilver

[LadySilver 46]

On 3/18/2020 at 5:38 AM, wjimmy said:

I wonder, however, how married couples come to terms with a fetish - e.g. some aspect of pee - when one partner doesn't share that fetish and may, in fact, be repelled by it. That must present a significant challenge for couples at times. 

I'm not married, but I can speak to this experience a little bit. My partner is not into pee at all, though I don't know if he's repelled by the fact that I'm into it. It hasn't been a huge challenge for us. This is partially because we're not doing a lot sexually anyway (his mental health has been poor leaving him without enough energy), but it's also because I'm both able to enjoy sex without my fetish involved and feel like I can enjoy my fetish on my own in a healthy and gratifying way. 

If I had to guess, I would say the problems that would arise in couples would more be due to the things I just mentioned: one not being able to enjoy sex with the other unless the fetish is or isn't involved or because one person is has an imbalance in the way they're pursuing sexual gratification from their fetish (using porn when the other isn't okay with that, using porn or masturbating too much, etc.) Issues could also arise if the partner without the fetish is genuinely appalled by the other's fetish, in which case working on accepting each other would be the key thing. Just my not professional two cents. 

Thanks for your response, Jimmy! 

Edited March 19, 2020 by LadySilver

[wjimmy 1,009]

This thought may be a little off topic - in which case, my apologies - but in my case I believe my excitement about women peeing goes back to my very early years. 

As an adult, I developed a powerful interest in piss porn sometime in the 1980s, when it became available to me for the first time In Dutch and German porn shops. However, my earliest pee-related memory goes back to when I was a toddler - probably aged 3 or 4. I was out with my mother, who presumably urgently had to pee. So she took me into the women's side of a public lavatory. She didn't explain, but I think she felt she couldn't leave me unattended outside, so she took me into the stall with her, sat down on the toilet and pissed. I don't remember seeing the actual pissing - this was the early 1950s and women wore big skirts then - and I don't even remember her pulling her  knickers down, though I assume she must have done. But I do remember seeing her stocking tops and suspenders - which are, of course, a very common fetish focus for men of my age.  And I remember the strong sense that I shouldn't be there, which my mother's manner must have conveyed to me. She obviously felt she was doing something 'wrong' in taking a little boy into the toilet with her while she peed, but she was caught between a rock and a hard place: take me in with her or leave me in possible danger of being kidnapped or wandering off outside. 

Now I think about it, my earliest sexual fantasy was of a little girl - i.e. of my own age at the time - on the potty (a kid-sized chamber pot). Nothing happened in that fantasy beyond that simple scene and the repetition of the words "little girl on the potty" in my mind, but it was frequent. I think I probably 'ran ' it every night before I fell asleep. I must have been between three and five years old. I didn't masturbate, of course - though maybe I played with myself a little -  but the fantasy was intensely sexual. 

What I'm getting round to saying here is simply that, in my case, the erotic focus on women pissing is infantile. Until quite recently I'd have used the term 'infantile' as a pejorative and I'd have assumed I ought to 'grow out of it' at some point. Now I don't see it like that. Whatever the source, the fetish is part of me. I see personality as a palimpsest - a set of layers, which influence each other throughout life. The little boy who fantasized about women and girls pissing is as much 'me' as the later, 'grown-up' additions. We all have to coexist.

(It is, of course. very nice to be able to discuss this kind of thing here, so thank you very much for this thread.) 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by wjimmy
grammar

[steve25805 126,028]

On 3/19/2020 at 2:50 PM, wjimmy said:

What I'm getting round to saying here is simply that, in my case, the erotic focus on women pissing is infantile.

I find this interesting, because I have heard urophilia described by professionals as an immature fixation upon the urinatory act. Some professionals think of us as not having fully developed a mature sexual orientation but that we have carried forward into adulthood an infantile fixation upon urination which we have also sexualised.

I myself first became aware of an interest in peeing - which I later realised was sexual - quite far back into childhood when I was too young to know anything about sex. When I was aged about 6 or 7 in the school playground a girl of similar age peed in a doorway instead of going to the toilet. I was fascinated and interested in this in ways I was too young to understand. As I grew older but still in my pre-pubescent years I developed peeing fantasies involving girls peeing here or there, or even characters from Star Trek (the original series) doing so.

When I reached full sexual awareness my interest became fully sexualised but I was still only a very young teenager of school age.

[wjimmy 1,009]

7 hours ago, steve25805 said:

I find this interesting, because I have heard urophilia described by professionals as an immature fixation upon the urinatory act. Some professionals think of us as not having fully developed a mature sexual orientation but that we have carried forward into adulthood an infantile fixation upon urination which we have also sexualised.

I myself first became aware of an interest in peeing - which I later realised was sexual - quite far back into childhood when I was too young to know anything about sex. When I was aged about 6 or 7 in the school playground a girl of similar age peed in a doorway instead of going to the toilet. I was fascinated and interested in this in ways I was too young to understand. As I grew older but still in my pre-pubescent years I developed peeing fantasies involving girls peeing here or there, or even characters from Star Trek (the original series) doing so.

When I reached full sexual awareness my interest became fully sexualised but I was still only a very young teenager of school age.

I'm not a psychoanalyst - or any other kind of psych-expert, in fact - but I think the idea of 'outgrowing' an erotic fixation originates with Freud and carries over into a subsequent medical model of 'psychic health'. In fact, I think Freud was part of a more general, misguided, 19th century intellectual tradition that believed in the inevitability and 'health' of 'evolution/progress' - e.g. Marx's idea of social evolution towards an ideal state of communist freedom; the early 19th century anthropologists' (e.g. Frazer's)  idea that 'Man' evolves from the 'primitive' to a 'civilized' state; and - therefore - Freud's belief in the 'natural' development of the individual psyche from 'infantile' to 'mature'. I have a lot of respect for all those people, including Freud, but I think the evolutionary model was severely flawed in all cases. We don't 'progress' through life; we simply add. As I said earlier, we're all palimpsests,  adding layer on layer as we age.

Freud's theory of infant sexuality was summed up by his phrase  'polymorphous perversity'.  I accept the phrase to the extent that it implies that infants have a wide range of sexualities available to them - i.e. that they don't judge or discriminate between erotic focuses. They simply feel and fantasize. But I reject the pejorative implication of the word 'perversity' itself. (I've checked Freud's original German and it seems to be the same, though I can't be absolutely sure that the connotations of German  'pervers' were precisely the same as English 'perverse' and 'perverted' for Freud.) But there seems to be a major contradiction here, at the root of Freud's thinking. If infant sexuality is the ground state of our being, it must surely be natural? How , then, can it be 'perverted', since 'perverted' means unnatural? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphous_perversity

(I note that the Wikipedia article says: "For Freud, "perversion" is a non-judgmental term. He used it to designate behavior outside the socially acceptable norms of his era." I'm not convinced that's correct. I believe he was a product of his era and shared its prejudices. Compare the Oedipus Complex, which pretty much excludes that 50% (approx.) of the population who are girls - a very 19th century attitude.) 

Edited March 22, 2020 by wjimmy

[LadySilver 46]

On 3/19/2020 at 11:50 AM, wjimmy said:

This thought may be a little off topic - in which case, my apologies

Not a huge issue at all. The ways in which I intend to use any or all of this information will be my problem in the fall haha - For now, I'm happy to talk about things outside the scope of my research because they're still super interesting! 

There are a few theories of where paraphilia comes from that I haven't had loads of time to research. Some people take a psychoanalytic perspective as you two have discussed. Others take a somatosensory conditioning lens (in short, paraphilia develops as people accidentally come to associate not typically sexual stimuli with sexual arousal forming an unusual neural pathway that connects the non-normative stimulus to the experience of sexuality). Others yet suggest childhood trauma could be involved and the resolution of that trauma could cause the paraphilia to fade. There are also some interesting developments in the neurobiology paraphilia (let me know if you want the article I'm using: it's fantastic!). 

Where I would fall on it, as someone who hasn't done enough research on the topic, is that every experience of paraphilia is a little different! I would imagine that for some different explanations have more explanatory power. Some have experienced trauma that developed their sexuality in a particular way, others haven't. Some by some accident came to associate something not typically sexual with a sexual response, others can't think of an experience that would indicate that happened. I would imagine it's a combination of a certain brain structure that leads to potential for a person's experience to form them in a particular way.

For some, perhaps, it makes sense to look into resolving childhood experiences to have a healthier experience of sexuality (whether the paraphilia fades or not, I don't think is the issue). For others, looking into someone's childhood really wouldn't solve much as far as issues of sexuality are concerned. I definitely don't think it helps to have as your starting point making radical changes to someone's experience of paraphilia - mental health and trauma issues are probably more important and if the paraphilia really is something that doesn't need to be there, working on those things will send that person in that direction without any direct effort at it. I'm in total agreement that the language of paraphilia as unnatural is totally ridiculous. 

As someone who had experienced my paraphilia from a super young age and has no memory of trauma or coming to associate urine with sexuality - the insistence that something must have gone wrong for my sexuality to end up this way is a little insulting. Why are there so many healthy adults with paraphilia if these theories are sufficient in explaining where paraphilia comes from? 

On 3/19/2020 at 11:50 AM, wjimmy said:

It is, of course. very nice to be able to discuss this kind of thing here, so thank you very much for this thread.

It's my pleasure. I'm a total nerd for this stuff and am thrilled there are others just as interested in it as me 🙂

Thank you two for keeping this going!