Oktoberfest 2022

[navesink01 157]

I did go to this year's Oktoberfest in Munich and am happy to report that sightings are still plentiful.  Things have changed, however.  More portable toilets have been added.  Security is very active to prevent all public peeing, wherever it might occur on site.  Finally a lot more fencing has been erected to cut off sites that had previously been ideal viewing areas.  

As anyone who has viewed videos and images from past years, there was always prime viewing near the Hofbrau-Festzelt.  Fist, the outdoor portable toilets always had long lines, so the viewing of desperation was, seemingly, abundant.  Second, due to that, there were places in back of the portable toilets and alongside nearby trees that afforded viewing of those who chose not to wait, or could not wait.  Well, both possibilities have been effectively eliminated.  The abundance of toilet facilities means that lines rarely exceeded a few people, even at the height of a weekend night.  Second the security fences have eliminated access to all the areas in which spotters have previously be able to find public activity.   The image, basically sums it all up.  

However, that does not mean you cannot see public peeing.  Again, former sites, such as the nearby hill, have been fenced off, or roped off.  Again, the security details, are also very active.  
But, there is still open area, such as an adjoining parking lot (inside the fence) and some open areas with grass.  The security details also were often organized in groups and they do eventually move on to other areas.  In other words, their presence is not constant.  So, there are definitely times when their lack of presence does enable activity.   

One sighting I did have does prove the annoyance of the security and the persistence of a person in need.  Two woman traipsed up the grassy area, on a clear mission.   It was after dark, but ambient lighting made the darkness, relatively irrelevant.  Once the ladies were underway, the nearby security unit hit them with flashlights and yelled at them to desist.  They complied with the instruction, but one of the ladies was clearly in need.  She walked over to an adjoining dumpster area and assessed the possibilities.  She looked around again and noticed that security moved on, ,so she traipsed back onto the grassy area and proceeded to a tree.  She pulled up her skirt, squatted and was able to obtain relief, unmolested by security.     

All in all, the woman who were viewed did not seem to care who might be looking at them.  To one degree or another, some tried to obtain some modesty.  There were a few trees, which really did not hide much.  However, just as many just squatted on the lawn.  Some even went under the security tape that had been strung a long a path, to discourage public peeing, and simply squatted in that roped off area.    I really did not spend too much time viewing, as I was there to enjoy Oktoberfest music, beer and food.  Maybe an hour or two was spent by me, just sitting on a bench and viewing what was clearly and plainly viewable, without my being a creep about it.   

In the end, there is clearly a mission to reduce or eliminate public peeing, and, no doubt, more steps might be made in the future.  I sense that covid gave reason to make things more sanitary and secure and everything I described is probably related to those measures.      

       

[Alfresco 11,631]

Thanks for the comprehensive update.    Certainly sounds like the organisers want to eliminate or at least severely restrict public peeing - maybe as a result of complaints from previous years about lack of facilities or from those who don’t ike seeing people peeing.  Good to know some people are still choosing to pee outside anyway - particularly like the fact that some girls just squat on the lawn.

[Alpian 687]

Thank you for the update!

I believe a strong motivation for the city is also the publicity around voyeurs and posting of spy shots on porn sites. These have led to criminalizing taking pictures of people without their knowledge in Germany, creating laws like the EU privacy regulation obliging internet companies to take down personal information at the depicted person's request, and hightened the sense of insecurity among women just wanting to relieve themselves.

The security activity in Munich totally fits that picture, the provision of additional toilets and security comes with a cost and they must be doing it upon popular demand.

Overall, I have the impression that Germans have become less relaxed about public nudity since the existence of sites where spy pics and vids are exchanged and published has come to public conscience. Not that anyone cares about seeing people naked - just people below a certain age simply don't get naked anymore in public.

Does anyone share my observations or do you have different hypotheses to explain?

[Kupar 13,339]

7 hours ago, Alpian said:

Does anyone share my observations or do you have different hypotheses to explain?

I have heard it suggested that an increase in immigration from cultures where public nudity is anathema has contributed but I'm not sure about that. In my limited, holiday and business travel experience over the last 20 years or so, most recently in 2019 for beaches in Mecklenburg Vorpommern and in Berlin, there are still some young people stripping off. Both of these places are in the old East, which I suspect is still more FKK than the old West. I was in Rheinlandpfalz in 2022 but there wasn't much opportunity to get naked, except in the saunas of course. 

[Alpian 687]

Hi @Kupar,

Yes, in the East, it was very much a covert - and accepted - way to protest against the oppressive regime to get naked on the beach. In the early nineties, there were no dedicated nude beaches, yet about 50% of people on all beaches were still naked despite Western "take over" of their culture. If you go to places like Prerow now (I think you mentioned it in a different post), they are but a shadow of their former self. There still is a huge FKK campsite and beach, but the mixity is gone and the generational mix is very much skewed to those who have been around in the nineties.

Indeed, nudity is still widely accepted, and there are young people who don't give a damn. But you see much less families going FKK, and I'm not surprised with all the smartphones around. You wouldn't want your kid to feature naked as the background of a post on social media going viral. Same for public peeing: Who would want to find themselves in social media or even a Bild headline (duly "anonymized") whilst having a leak on the lawn of the Oktoberfest, featuring a headline like "vandals piss all over xxx, police issue fines" or "Perverts sharing spy shots of pissing woman on Internet pornsites"?

Back in the day, voyeur photography existed - but you had to carry huge equipment, and the sharing happened in clandestine (snail-) mailing groups with VHS tapes and the like. Today, everyone has their smartphone on the beach and we all share our holiday pictures in real time on social media. I feel this has greatly increased the feeling of vulnerability around nudity - especially when seen as inappropriate like whilst peeing in public - in (German) society?

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Alpian
grammar

[Kupar 13,339]

1 hour ago, Alpian said:

Hi @Kupar,

Yes, in the East, it was very much a covert - and accepted - way to protest against the oppressive regime to get naked on the beach. In the early nineties, there were no dedicated nude beaches, yet about 50% of people on all beaches were still naked despite Western "take over" of their culture. If you go to places like Prerow now (I think you mentioned it in a different post), they are but a shadow of their former self. There still is a huge FKK campsite and beach, but the mixity is gone and the generational mix is very much skewed to those who have been around in the nineties.

Indeed, nudity is still widely accepted, and there are young people who don't give a damn. But you see much less families going FKK, and I'm not surprised with all the smartphones around. You wouldn't want your kid to feature naked as the background of a post on social media going viral. Same for public peeing: Who would want to find themselves in social media or even a Bild headline (duly "anonymized") whilst having a leak on the lawn of the Oktoberfest, featuring a headline like "vandals piss all over xxx, police issue fines" or "Perverts sharing spy shots of pissing woman on Internet pornsites"?

Back in the day, voyeur photography existed - but you had to carry huge equipment, and the sharing happened in clandestine (snail-) mailing groups with VHS tapes and the like. Today, everyone has their smartphone on the beach and we all share our holiday pictures in real time on social media. I feel this has greatly increased the feeling of vulnerability around nudity - especially when seen as inappropriate like whilst peeing in public - in (German) society?

 

Thanks @Alpian - it's good to have your perspective. I'm afraid I won't do anything for the age profile of nude people on German beaches (or elsewhere) - there's nothing I can do about that! And yes, Prerow and Zingst are great (though my favourite is the Darss Weststrand 💖) - still FKK families there last time I went 🙂 

[navesink01 157]

3 hours ago, Alpian said:

Indeed, nudity is still widely accepted, and there are young people who don't give a damn. But you see much less families going FKK, and I'm not surprised with all the smartphones around. You wouldn't want your kid to feature naked as the background of a post on social media going viral. Same for public peeing: Who would want to find themselves in social media or even a Bild headline (duly "anonymized") whilst having a leak on the lawn of the Oktoberfest, featuring a headline like "vandals piss all over xxx, police issue fines" or "Perverts sharing spy shots of pissing woman on Internet pornsites"?

Back in the day, voyeur photography existed - but you had to carry huge equipment, and the sharing happened in clandestine (snail-) mailing groups with VHS tapes and the like. Today, everyone has their smartphone on the beach and we all share our holiday pictures in real time on social media. I feel this has greatly increased the feeling of vulnerability around nudity - especially when seen as inappropriate like whilst peeing in public - in (German) society?

 

I agree that smart phones have significantly changed the landscape.  It is not only that images and videos can be easily captured on a discrete devise, but that a moment that involves only a couple of people can then be instantly shared into a distribution system that reaches a vast swath of the human race.  Once something is digitized and shared, it loses any form of meaningful containment.  You notice the impacts in our world in that true voyeur images, once very prevalent, are now rare.    It also goes far beyond our world as well to the point that with such technology, the realm of truly private is shrinking to almost nothing.  Increased miniaturization, drones, and explosion of sharing platforms that evade any form of policing only make an expectation of privacy minimal.  I am not saying any of this is right or wrong, just stating facts and realities.      

I think this is a very good subject, and perhaps it should be brought out in a distinct topic.  It is the "ethics" of capturing and sharing things observed.  I put that in quotes, as it is relative and it will be filtered through many different cultural, religious, and personal belief filters, with a fair amount of rationalization baked in.  So, it is hard to say there is some absolute rule out there. 

It does break down into two separate questions, I think.  One of viewing and one of sharing.  So, let me wade into this troubling subject. 

In the end, any activity done in public is public domain.  However, there is a line where the subject's attempts at privacy and objections of being seen do matter and that the viewer can cross a line of what is right, and even be considered to be assaulting the subject.  Yes, rules and laws are emerging and will try to address where the line is drawn, but I do think that most people, unless they totally lack a compass, know where that line exists.  It needs to be respected.     I know from my own personal experiences that subjects sometimes want to be caught and they are titillated by that possibility.  I know others simply do not care, as their ethos around being naked is that there is nothing wrong with being naked or being seen as such.  Some even celebrate it and embrace being seen.  Some are thrilled with being exhibitionists, even.  So, yes, it is all situational and makes a "one size fits all" rule very difficult to develop.  So, I feel that there are many instances where our eye can rightfully capture what is displayed in public.  Taking an image of it, is just memorializing what our eye sees and, if contained in our personal devise is really no different that the picture in our "minds eye."     Again, I am making very broad statements here that can always be overruled by context.  In some societies and or contexts, looking at someone in public, much less capturing an image, is not socially acceptable, no matter how innocent that view might be.   So, it goes to my earlier statements that nothing is universal and that it is all situational and contextual, in the end.       

It is the sharing that truly brings in the troubling aspects.  While one does take a risk of being seen peeing in public and may truly not want to be seen, they, whether they like it or not, have taken on all the attributes of public activity, including that of being seen.  Again assuming that the looker has not crossed a line.  However, that assumption of risk is as to those in the immediate vicinity, a very limited and calculated risk.   It, by no means, is never contemplated to an activity viewed by the whole world, with the monumental risk to ones privacy, reputation, etc., that this entails.   Yes, there are many arguments to the contrary on this point.  Again, one might say that one suspends any expectation of privacy, and, with that, of sharing, if one elects to be present, or do something, in public.  What that public space entails, and the expectations that go along with it, are shrinking.  Where what we do is considered right or wrong, will, I am sure evolve with it.     Meanwhile, I do applaud those who blur faces and other identifying aspects of an image as going a long way of addressing the troubling aspects of sharing images and videos.                      

[navesink01 157]

Now to redirect the topic back to Oktoberfest 2022.  I want to now state what was seen, instead of what was not seen, or may not be seen in the future. 

As I said, my purpose of attending Oktoberfest was not actually to watch public peeing, but to actually be at Oktoberfest for the food, drink, music and activity.  I highly recommend it.  

All in all, I went for two days, both forecasted to be heavily trafficked days, but actually tempered by weather conditions.   Both of my viewing time periods occured on the ends of my daily visits. 

On the first day, or rather late afternoon, early evening, I went to the tent that grabbed most of past notoriety for copious drinking and what happens next after a large amount of people consume a lot of liquid.  In the past, there were long lines and ample sites of desperation and hunts for alternative places to pee.  I found no such long lines, either inside the venues or outside.  I then lingered outside on of the venues and simply watched what might occur.  I had a view of the lines, that never amounted to much, as well as adjacent grassy areas.  All viewing that day was from inside the gated area.  It did not amount to much, but from time to time, a women and men (and men have no interest to this viewer), would walk on to the grassy area, that went uphill from my viewing position, and would squat to pee (women) or whip it out and pee (men).  Some would seek cover from a tree, but many regarded the fence line, at the top of the hill, to be all the cover they needed.  That was about as far away from my line of site, as possible, as it was really not near where I was standing.  Still, I could see the occasional user of the grass facilities, as late afternoon turned into dusk and night fell.  

As night fell, I too wandered across the grassy area and up the hill to what I regarded as a better vantage point.  I casually leaned against the fence and caught up on my email.  I was shortly confronted by another man advising me against standing at such vantage point, as the security guard would come by and give me a hard time.  I took that advise and moved on.  It was sound advise, based upon what I would witness the next day.  However, in the short period of time I was at that vantage point, the viewing was a lot better.  No less than two different women walked up the hill and squatted.  One squatted along the fence line that snaked up the side of the hill.  The other nearly made it to the top and squatted beside a tree.   The first one was still a bit of distance from me, so my presence was not really noticed.  While the vantage point was better, it was not really all that close either.  So, all I saw was her yanking down her pants, a bit a bare ass, and a full squat.  The second one did see me and did not care, she pulled up her dress, pulled down what many women seemed to wear under the dirndls, that being like biker pants, and squatted to pee.  Again, much closer, but not really all that close to me.  

After being advised off the grass, I went down to the bottom, again, and leaned against the building.  I saw one or two more instances, largely from a fair.  I then called it a day. 

The second day was far more productive, as I applied what I learned and wasted far less time on what was not constructive viewing.  After a full day, largely with the rain pouring upon the festivity, I decided that enough was enough.  The rain had ceased, but night had already fallen.  I went back to the same general area of the first day, but decided upon a completely different vantage point.  I hesitate to give details, as I think this place is special and I think that we who share can destroy for future viewers.  Suffice it to say that I had a comfortable, non creepy place to sit and the viewing was amazing.  Of note:

* As I described above, two women walked onto the grassy area, at a fast pace, leaving no doubt upon their intentions.  They were headed for the trees, but the security pack (they moved in packs) was nearby, and they hit the women with their high powered flash lights and yelled at them to desist.  The security people even started to move toward them.  One was pointing the nearby portal toilets and urging use of said facilities.  BTW - those portable toilets where very visible, always in this area, and had little to no lines, so all people viewed by me were exercising a clear choice to piss in public.    The women retreated, and one of them even began to walk away.  The other did look around nearby dumpsters and was clearly intent on not going to the portable toilets and finding a public place to pee.  She noticed the guards had moved away and then immediately ascended the hill and worked her way along the chain link fence, hunting for a suitable place.  She went into a half squat twice and decided to move on.  She eventually went into a full squat, not all that far from me, pulled up her skirt and unleashed a massive pee that could be heard.   

* Another woman and man, later wandered toward me.  He found a tree and she kept moving.  She landed, in a most unbelievable development, within feet of me, clearly seeing me and not caring.  She lifted up her skirt and pulled down a satin red thong.  Yes, I was close enough to see that!  Her back was to a tree, but she was full frontal to me.  She went into a half squat and left zero to imagination as to what I saw next.  A torrent poured out of her before she pulled up her thong and rejoined her partner.

*  I saw several others make for the fence line and/or collection of trees.  The volume was quite regular.  It was evident that many could view and the concerns seemed to be completely absent by those peeing.  

*  After about only an hour, I decided to go back to my room.  I was actually getting cold.  On the way back, I walked along a road that had a view down toward the Oktoberfest venue.  As I walked along, the view was of a parking lot, inside the fence.  As I walked, I saw no less then tree different women stop to pee besides the cars.  First, one was with two other guys.  They both peed, in back of a parked pickup truck.  She then hiked up her dress and peed right next to them.  it was a bit far away from may vantage point, but I could clearly see what was happening.  Before I reached the end of the road, and of the parking lot below, two other women, one after the other, moved into the parking lot and squatted behind the cars.   My viewing of this areas was perhaps 5 to 10 minutes, at most, but do note that this might be the best vantage point to view action, of the evening.        

There were more, but those are the highlights.         

 

 

[Alpian 687]

Thank you @navesink01 for sharing your sightings and keeping the confidentiality of your spot - indeed, the internet is becoming more and more a source for security to identify viewing spots and making sure they are under surveillance. Glad you enjoyed your stay in Munich (it's been ages since I've been to this beautiful city)!