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Oktoberfest 2022


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Thanks for the comprehensive update.    Certainly sounds like the organisers want to eliminate or at least severely restrict public peeing - maybe as a result of complaints from previous years about lack of facilities or from those who don’t ike seeing people peeing.  Good to know some people are still choosing to pee outside anyway - particularly like the fact that some girls just squat on the lawn.

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Thank you for the update!

I believe a strong motivation for the city is also the publicity around voyeurs and posting of spy shots on porn sites. These have led to criminalizing taking pictures of people without their knowledge in Germany, creating laws like the EU privacy regulation obliging internet companies to take down personal information at the depicted person's request, and hightened the sense of insecurity among women just wanting to relieve themselves.

The security activity in Munich totally fits that picture, the provision of additional toilets and security comes with a cost and they must be doing it upon popular demand.

Overall, I have the impression that Germans have become less relaxed about public nudity since the existence of sites where spy pics and vids are exchanged and published has come to public conscience. Not that anyone cares about seeing people naked - just people below a certain age simply don't get naked anymore in public.

Does anyone share my observations or do you have different hypotheses to explain?

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7 hours ago, Alpian said:

Does anyone share my observations or do you have different hypotheses to explain?

I have heard it suggested that an increase in immigration from cultures where public nudity is anathema has contributed but I'm not sure about that. In my limited, holiday and business travel experience over the last 20 years or so, most recently in 2019 for beaches in Mecklenburg Vorpommern and in Berlin, there are still some young people stripping off. Both of these places are in the old East, which I suspect is still more FKK than the old West. I was in Rheinlandpfalz in 2022 but there wasn't much opportunity to get naked, except in the saunas of course. 

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Hi @Kupar,

Yes, in the East, it was very much a covert - and accepted - way to protest against the oppressive regime to get naked on the beach. In the early nineties, there were no dedicated nude beaches, yet about 50% of people on all beaches were still naked despite Western "take over" of their culture. If you go to places like Prerow now (I think you mentioned it in a different post), they are but a shadow of their former self. There still is a huge FKK campsite and beach, but the mixity is gone and the generational mix is very much skewed to those who have been around in the nineties.

Indeed, nudity is still widely accepted, and there are young people who don't give a damn. But you see much less families going FKK, and I'm not surprised with all the smartphones around. You wouldn't want your kid to feature naked as the background of a post on social media going viral. Same for public peeing: Who would want to find themselves in social media or even a Bild headline (duly "anonymized") whilst having a leak on the lawn of the Oktoberfest, featuring a headline like "vandals piss all over xxx, police issue fines" or "Perverts sharing spy shots of pissing woman on Internet pornsites"?

Back in the day, voyeur photography existed - but you had to carry huge equipment, and the sharing happened in clandestine (snail-) mailing groups with VHS tapes and the like. Today, everyone has their smartphone on the beach and we all share our holiday pictures in real time on social media. I feel this has greatly increased the feeling of vulnerability around nudity - especially when seen as inappropriate like whilst peeing in public - in (German) society?

 

Edited by Alpian
grammar
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1 hour ago, Alpian said:

Hi @Kupar,

Yes, in the East, it was very much a covert - and accepted - way to protest against the oppressive regime to get naked on the beach. In the early nineties, there were no dedicated nude beaches, yet about 50% of people on all beaches were still naked despite Western "take over" of their culture. If you go to places like Prerow now (I think you mentioned it in a different post), they are but a shadow of their former self. There still is a huge FKK campsite and beach, but the mixity is gone and the generational mix is very much skewed to those who have been around in the nineties.

Indeed, nudity is still widely accepted, and there are young people who don't give a damn. But you see much less families going FKK, and I'm not surprised with all the smartphones around. You wouldn't want your kid to feature naked as the background of a post on social media going viral. Same for public peeing: Who would want to find themselves in social media or even a Bild headline (duly "anonymized") whilst having a leak on the lawn of the Oktoberfest, featuring a headline like "vandals piss all over xxx, police issue fines" or "Perverts sharing spy shots of pissing woman on Internet pornsites"?

Back in the day, voyeur photography existed - but you had to carry huge equipment, and the sharing happened in clandestine (snail-) mailing groups with VHS tapes and the like. Today, everyone has their smartphone on the beach and we all share our holiday pictures in real time on social media. I feel this has greatly increased the feeling of vulnerability around nudity - especially when seen as inappropriate like whilst peeing in public - in (German) society?

 

Thanks @Alpian - it's good to have your perspective. I'm afraid I won't do anything for the age profile of nude people on German beaches (or elsewhere) - there's nothing I can do about that! And yes, Prerow and Zingst are great (though my favourite is the Darss Weststrand 💖) - still FKK families there last time I went 🙂 

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3 hours ago, Alpian said:

Indeed, nudity is still widely accepted, and there are young people who don't give a damn. But you see much less families going FKK, and I'm not surprised with all the smartphones around. You wouldn't want your kid to feature naked as the background of a post on social media going viral. Same for public peeing: Who would want to find themselves in social media or even a Bild headline (duly "anonymized") whilst having a leak on the lawn of the Oktoberfest, featuring a headline like "vandals piss all over xxx, police issue fines" or "Perverts sharing spy shots of pissing woman on Internet pornsites"?

Back in the day, voyeur photography existed - but you had to carry huge equipment, and the sharing happened in clandestine (snail-) mailing groups with VHS tapes and the like. Today, everyone has their smartphone on the beach and we all share our holiday pictures in real time on social media. I feel this has greatly increased the feeling of vulnerability around nudity - especially when seen as inappropriate like whilst peeing in public - in (German) society?

 

I agree that smart phones have significantly changed the landscape.  It is not only that images and videos can be easily captured on a discrete devise, but that a moment that involves only a couple of people can then be instantly shared into a distribution system that reaches a vast swath of the human race.  Once something is digitized and shared, it loses any form of meaningful containment.  You notice the impacts in our world in that true voyeur images, once very prevalent, are now rare.    It also goes far beyond our world as well to the point that with such technology, the realm of truly private is shrinking to almost nothing.  Increased miniaturization, drones, and explosion of sharing platforms that evade any form of policing only make an expectation of privacy minimal.  I am not saying any of this is right or wrong, just stating facts and realities.      

I think this is a very good subject, and perhaps it should be brought out in a distinct topic.  It is the "ethics" of capturing and sharing things observed.  I put that in quotes, as it is relative and it will be filtered through many different cultural, religious, and personal belief filters, with a fair amount of rationalization baked in.  So, it is hard to say there is some absolute rule out there. 

It does break down into two separate questions, I think.  One of viewing and one of sharing.  So, let me wade into this troubling subject. 

In the end, any activity done in public is public domain.  However, there is a line where the subject's attempts at privacy and objections of being seen do matter and that the viewer can cross a line of what is right, and even be considered to be assaulting the subject.  Yes, rules and laws are emerging and will try to address where the line is drawn, but I do think that most people, unless they totally lack a compass, know where that line exists.  It needs to be respected.     I know from my own personal experiences that subjects sometimes want to be caught and they are titillated by that possibility.  I know others simply do not care, as their ethos around being naked is that there is nothing wrong with being naked or being seen as such.  Some even celebrate it and embrace being seen.  Some are thrilled with being exhibitionists, even.  So, yes, it is all situational and makes a "one size fits all" rule very difficult to develop.  So, I feel that there are many instances where our eye can rightfully capture what is displayed in public.  Taking an image of it, is just memorializing what our eye sees and, if contained in our personal devise is really no different that the picture in our "minds eye."     Again, I am making very broad statements here that can always be overruled by context.  In some societies and or contexts, looking at someone in public, much less capturing an image, is not socially acceptable, no matter how innocent that view might be.   So, it goes to my earlier statements that nothing is universal and that it is all situational and contextual, in the end.       

It is the sharing that truly brings in the troubling aspects.  While one does take a risk of being seen peeing in public and may truly not want to be seen, they, whether they like it or not, have taken on all the attributes of public activity, including that of being seen.  Again assuming that the looker has not crossed a line.  However, that assumption of risk is as to those in the immediate vicinity, a very limited and calculated risk.   It, by no means, is never contemplated to an activity viewed by the whole world, with the monumental risk to ones privacy, reputation, etc., that this entails.   Yes, there are many arguments to the contrary on this point.  Again, one might say that one suspends any expectation of privacy, and, with that, of sharing, if one elects to be present, or do something, in public.  What that public space entails, and the expectations that go along with it, are shrinking.  Where what we do is considered right or wrong, will, I am sure evolve with it.     Meanwhile, I do applaud those who blur faces and other identifying aspects of an image as going a long way of addressing the troubling aspects of sharing images and videos.                      

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Thank you @navesink01 for sharing your sightings and keeping the confidentiality of your spot - indeed, the internet is becoming more and more a source for security to identify viewing spots and making sure they are under surveillance. Glad you enjoyed your stay in Munich (it's been ages since I've been to this beautiful city)!

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