Evil women: more deadlier than the male?

[steve25805 126,015]

These off-topic discussions rarely take off here, but I thought I'd try a new one and see if there is any interest.

I've just finished reading an e-book about the Ken and Barbie Killers, Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka, who were involved in the kidnap and rape - and in some cases murder - of young teenage girls, one of them Karla's own sister. Both videotaped each other's sexual assaults upon their victims. Karla got off lightly, serving only 12 years after claiming to be an abused woman acting under duress. But videos that emerged later showed her to be a willing participant in the assaults who was getting off on it. And it appears that not only is she a sociopath herself, but one who has a fetish for highly destructive "rape and pillage" type males. And Paul was already raping other women when they met. Truly a match made in hell. More worrying still is the apparent likelihood that she herself was the one who actually killed the victims. And yet she is now free with a partner and children!

Anyway, all this got me thinking about people who commit evil crimes, the nature of evil itself, and the fact that so many of us seem to react with even greater horror at the revelation of women doing such things. Yes, we all know that a minority of men can be truly sick in an evil way - Jeffrey Dahmer, Fred West, Ian Brady, Andrei Chikatillo, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, etc, etc. The list could be a very long one. And yes, their crimes invariably shock us, as they ought to. Yet my horrified reaction is that bit stronger, more visceral, and I feel substantially more sickened and horrified, when women do such things.

I have tried to ponder why I react with greater horror to crimes that equal - but cannot exceed - the horror of the very worst crimes committed by men, and where the main difference is simply the gender of the perpetrator. Women who commit acts of great brutality, barabarity, sadism, and cruelty just get under my skin so much more for some reason. They horrify, sicken and disgust me more. Cruel and barbaric and evil women simply disturb me much more than similar men, because it somehow seems even more wrong in some way.

I've noticed that a greater degree of horror at the discovery of female involvement in terrible crimes, is a common reaction amongst many men - and women too. I have wondered why. All I can really come up with is that on some level most of us are raised to take it for granted that females are the nurturers, and the compassionate souls, more naturally empathetic than men, etc. The examples of our mothers has had big influences upon many of us here too. I think we absorb deep down in our subconscious basic assumptions about women being kinder, better with children, greater at showing compassion, far more averse to cruelty or violence. Consciously, we know that a minority of women - like a minority of men - are capable of doing some terible things for the most depraved of motives. Yet so often the details of their crimes just shock us that much more than if it were a man, because it doesn't sit well with that subconscious idealisation of what women are all about which many of us carry deep down.

But I will pose the question. Is the female of our species actually more deadly than the male? Or are we just more easily disgusted and shocked because of her gender due to old-fashioned subconsious and ingrained gender difference assumptions?

In this thread I intend to post brief examples of some of the most evil and terrible crimes committed by women in modern times, and I ask others to ponder them and think about whether these crimes are worse than those committed by men, or merely seem so.

[F.W 5,734]

These off-topic discussions rarely take off here, but I thought I'd try a new one and see if there is any interest.

I've just finished reading an e-book about the Ken and Barbie Killers, Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka, who were involved in the kidnap and rape - and in some cases murder - of young teenage girls, one of them Karla's own sister. Both videotaped each other's sexual assaults upon their victims. Karla got off lightly, serving only 12 years after claiming to be an abused woman acting under duress. But videos that emerged later showed her to be a willing participant in the assaults who was getting off on it. And it appears that not only is she a sociopath herself, but one who has a fetish for highly destructive "rape and pillage" type males. And Paul was already raping other women when they met. Truly a match made in hell. More worrying still is the apparent likelihood that she herself was the one who actually killed the victims. And yet she is now free with a partner and children!

Anyway, all this got me thinking about people who commit evil crimes, the nature of evil itself, and the fact that so many of us seem to react with even greater horror at the revelation of women doing such things. Yes, we all know that a minority of men can be truly sick in an evil way - Jeffrey Dahmer, Fred West, Ian Brady, Andrei Chikatillo, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, etc, etc. The list could be a very long one. And yes, their crimes invariably shock us, as they ought to. Yet my horrified reaction is that bit stronger, more visceral, and I feel substantially more sickened and horrified, when women do such things.

I have tried to ponder why I react with greater horror to crimes that equal - but cannot exceed - the horror of the very worst crimes committed by men, and where the main difference is simply the gender of the perpetrator. Women who commit acts of great brutality, barabarity, sadism, and cruelty just get under my skin so much more for some reason. They horrify, sicken and disgust me more. Cruel and barbaric and evil women simply disturb me much more than similar men, because it somehow seems even more wrong in some way.

I've noticed that a greater degree of horror at the discovery of female involvement in terrible crimes, is a common reaction amongst many men - and women too. I have wondered why. All I can really come up with is that on some level most of us are raised to take it for granted that females are the nurturers, and the compassionate souls, more naturally empathetic than men, etc. The examples of our mothers has had big influences upon many of us here too. I think we absorb deep down in our subconscious basic assumptions about women being kinder, better with children, greater at showing compassion, far more averse to cruelty or violence. Consciously, we know that a minority of women - like a minority of men - are capable of doing some terible things for the most depraved of motives. Yet so often the details of their crimes just shock us that much more than if it were a man, because it doesn't sit well with that subconscious idealisation of what women are all about which many of us carry deep down.

But I will pose the question. Is the female of our species actually more deadly than the male? Or are we just more easily disgusted and shocked because of her gender due to old-fashioned subconsious and ingrained gender difference assumptions?

In this thread I intend to post brief examples of some of the most evil and terrible crimes committed by women in modern times, and I ask others to ponder them and think about whether these crimes are worse than those committed by men, or merely seem so.

I think its a societal thing.Obviously,the factors that can cause males to grow up and become serial killers,can also affect females.But because in our society,women arent supposed to be deranged killers,its more a great shock to us.The case of Myra Hindley for example,she enticed their victims along for rides,knowing they would be assaulted and killed,yet because she was a woman,knew they would trust her.That made that case more evil.Hindley was a very normal young girl,with no indications of any mental issues,but she met an evil man,Ian Brady,and fell under his spell.So something,in her was able to be twisted.

Or poor Eileen Wuornos.She cold bloodedly killed about 6 men,while using her "status" as a hooker to get them out of the way,to then rob them at gunpoint,and shoot them.Yet her early life was horrendous,she was molested from about 4 years old by family members.No wonder she took a downer on men.But not evil,surely an unfortunate woman,whos life was almost pre-destined to follow the course it took?She was even a lesbian,fucking guys to earn money,but finding affection with a woman.Imagine how fucked up that would make you feel?

Society finds it more harder to understand the motives of women who murder,with men,its probably about 99% a sexual thing.Society will "understand" that,men being men,get frustrated,go out and take it out on innocent women.Society will not attempt to understand the motives behind a woman becoming a murderer,will not WANT to understand,the perverse motives of a woman,who murders.If it did,perhaps the truth of us all is too hard to deal with,sexuality the last great taboo.

[steve25805 126,015]

Bernadette McNeilly and Jean Powell;-

Over trivial matters, McNeilly and Powell - Mcneilly had recently moved in with Powell - and with the help of some males, lured the 16 year old Suzanne Capper back to McNeilly's house. There she had her hair and eyebrows shaved off and was beaten for hours with fists and implements, before being locked in a cupboard. McNeilly and Powell were the ringleaders in all that happened but four males participated too. One of these was introduced to the situation when he called to buy drugs from McNeilly who was then alone in the house, and who seemed ultra-excited and on a high, and gleefully threw some keys to the visitor and told him to look and see what she had in the cupboard. Much later in court he revealed that he saw a shaven headed girl who called herself "Suzanne", and who cowered in absolute terror.

Concerns over McNeilly's three children hearing Suzanne's crying, led to Suzanne being moved to McNeilly's now empty house, where she was chained spreadeagled on an upturned bed. And with no worries about anyone hearing her cries anymore, the torture escalated. With McNeilly in particular the main perpetrator and driving force, over the next six days, Suzanne was injected with amphetamines, had music played to her through headphones at full volume 24/7, was whipped and beaten on a regular basis and burned with cigarettes, and not once being released to use the toilet. McNeilly laughed with pleasure with every act of torture she perpetrated and delighted in tormenting her victim with some comment about "Chucky (a horror film character) coming to play" immediately before each torture session. At one point, Suzanne was covered in neat disinfectant and scrubbed so harshly with stiff brushes that large areas of her skin were rubbed off. Later, Jean Powell's brother - one of the male participants - pulled out several of Suzanne's teath with a pair of pliers, whilst Bernadette McNeilly and Jean Powell stood in the doorway watching.

At some point it dawned upon them that if their actions ever came to light they'd be doing serious jail time, so it was decided that she had to die. But they wanted even this to be fun. So the two women and two of the men forced her into the boot of a car and drove her to a secluded spot 15 miles away, McNeilly giggling with pleasure in anticipation of what was to follow. Once there she poured 5 litres of petrol over Suzanne and tried to ignite her. After several failed attempts, one of the males succeeded. The ensuing flames were said to have "lit up the forest" with Suzanne's agonised screams filling the night. Those present stood for a short while revelling in the sight of her agonised suffering, McNeilly grinning at the sight of the screaming and burning teenager. She then initiated singing "Burn, baby, burn" from the 70s hit Disco Inferno. And all the perpetrators continued singing such songs almost joyfully as they drove home, stopping to buy some beers on the way.

Unbenownst to them, however, Suzanne had not died immediately as they assumed, but lived long enough to alert the authorities, name her attackers and provide enough basic details to ensure that within days, the perpetrators were arrested and charged and ultimately given long jail sentences. Incrediby, when first arrested, Jean and Bernadette were laughing and joking about it all.

Still worse, it was soon established that not one of them was in any way insane or mentally unbalanced. In terms of psychological stability, they were as normal as your average Joe. Although heavy drug use - particularly amphetamines - was a constant throughout.

Clearly both women - Bernadette McNeilly in particular - are evil sadists who did these terrible things purely for their own sick pleasure, though the amphetamine high might have overridden whatever moral inhibitions they might otherwise have potentially had.

Deadlier than the male?

Here are some of the details of the case....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Capper

[F.W 5,734]

Bernadette McNeilly and Jean Powell;-

Over trivial matters, McNeilly and Powell - Mcneilly had recently moved in with Powell - and with the help of some males, lured the 16 year old Suzanne Capper back to McNeilly's house. There she had her hair and eyebrows shaved off and was beaten for hours with fists and implements, before being locked in a cupboard. McNeilly and Powell were the ringleaders in all that happened but four males participated too. One of these was introduced to the situation when he called to buy drugs from McNeilly who was then alone in the house, and who seemed ultra-excited and on a high, and gleefully threw some keys to the visitor and told him to look and see what she had in the cupboard. Much later in court he revealed that he saw a shaven headed girl who called herself "Suzanne", and who cowered in absolute terror.

Concerns over McNeilly's three children hearing Suzanne's crying, led to Suzanne being moved to McNeilly's now empty house, where she was chained spreadeagled on an upturned bed. And with no worries about anyone hearing her cries anymore, the torture escalated. With McNeilly in particular the main perpetrator and driving force, over the next six days, Suzanne was injected with amphetamines, had music played to her through headphones at full volume 24/7, was whipped and beaten on a regular basis and burned with cigarettes, and not once being released to use the toilet. McNeilly laughed with pleasure with every act of torture she perpetrated and delighted in tormenting her victim with some comment about "Chucky (a horror film character) coming to play" immediately before each torture session. At one point, Suzanne was covered in neat disinfect and and scrubbed so harshly with stiff brushes that large areas of her skin were rubbed off. Later, Jean Powell's brother - one of the male participants - pulled out several of Suzanne's teath with a pair of pliers, whilst Bernadette McNeilly and Jean Powell stood in the doorway watching.

At some point it dawned upon them that if their actions ever came to light they'd be doing serious jail time, so it was decided that she had to die. But they wanted even this to be fun. So the two women and two of the men forced her into the boot of a car and drove her to a secluded spot 15 miles away, McNeilly giggling with pleasure in anticipation of what was to follow. Once there she poured 5 litres of petrol over Suzanne and tried to ignite her. After several failed attempts, one of the males succeeded. The ensuing flames were said to have "lit up the forest" with Suzanne's agonised screams filling the night. Those present stood for a short while revelling in the sight of her agonised suffering, McNeilly grinning at the sight of the screaming and burning teenager. She then initiated singing "Burn, baby, burn" from the 70s hit Disco Inferno. And all the perpetrators continued singing such songs almost joyfully as they drove home, stopping to buy some beers on the way.

Unbenownst to them, however, Suzanne had not died immediately as they assumed, but lived long enough to alert the authorities, name her attackers and provide enough basic details to ensure that within days, the perpetrators were arrested and charged and ultimately given long jail sentences. Incrediby, when first arrested, Jean and Bernadette were laughing and joking about it all.

Still worse, it was soon established that not one of them was in any way insane or mentally unbalanced. In terms of psychological stability, they were as normal as your average Joe. Although heavy drug use - particularly amphetamines - was a constant throughout.

Clearly both women - Bernadette McNeilly in particular - are evil sadists who did these terrible things purely for their own sick pleasure, though the amphetamine high might have overridden whatever moral inhibitions they might otherwise have potentially had.

Deadlier than the male?

Here are some of the details of the case....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Capper

It HARDER to understand in some ways(if murder needs to be understood that is),when there is no sexual motive.That this is sadism for its own sake,pure and simple.It could be that in this case,the girls enjoyed watching any sexual assaults by the lads upon the poor girl.It doesnt shock me at all though that girls can be as bad as boys.

[steve25805 126,015]

I think its a societal thing.Obviously,the factors that can cause males to grow up and become serial killers,can also affect females.But because in our society,women arent supposed to be deranged killers,its more a great shock to us.The case of Myra Hindley for example,she enticed their victims along for rides,knowing they would be assaulted and killed,yet because she was a woman,knew they would trust her.That made that case more evil.Hindley was a very normal young girl,with no indications of any mental issues,but she met an evil man,Ian Brady,and fell under his spell.So something,in her was able to be twisted.

Or poor Eileen Wuornos.She cold bloodedly killed about 6 men,while using her "status" as a hooker to get them out of the way,to then rob them at gunpoint,and shoot them.Yet her early life was horrendous,she was molested from about 4 years old by family members.No wonder she took a downer on men.But not evil,surely an unfortunate woman,whos life was almost pre-destined to follow the course it took?She was even a lesbian,fucking guys to earn money,but finding affection with a woman.Imagine how fucked up that would make you feel?

Society finds it more harder to understand the motives of women who murder,with men,its probably about 99% a sexual thing.Society will "understand" that,men being men,get frustrated,go out and take it out on innocent women.Society will not attempt to understand the motives behind a woman becoming a murderer,will not WANT to understand,the perverse motives of a woman,who murders.If it did,perhaps the truth of us all is too hard to deal with,sexuality the last great taboo.

Certainly, in Wuornos's case, she is as much a tragic figure as an evil one. And whatever demons from her past tortured her, she clearly did not revel in murder and brutality for fun, as both the sickest male and female murderers do. Her killings - however unjustified and evil we know them to be - were at least designed to be quick and gotten over with, not something to be revelled in for fun for hours, days, or weeks.

Although she had to pay for her crimes, I in no way would place her in the same category of evil as that disgusting excuse for humanity described above - Bernadette McNeilly.

[F.W 5,734]

Of course NO bad upbringing etc can be an excuse for any criminality at all.The unfortunate victims of Wuornos were ordinary guys,some married,who were brutally robbed.(this raises another issue of morality,married men who visit prostitutes..).But as you say,she shot them,robbed them,and on her way,probably feeling some regret i think deep down.Using her status as a hooker to entrap men,also probably does indicate an inner self-loathing she must have had."This is only way i can make any money?This is how low ive become?",kind of thing.So as bad as she became,i think not evil.Hindley was evil.I think no psychiatrist ever actually could deduce how an ordinary girl,could be persuaded to indulge in such wickedness,no matter HOW in love she was.

[steve25805 126,015]

Of course NO bad upbringing etc can be an excuse for any criminality at all.The unfortunate victims of Wuornos were ordinary guys,some married,who were brutally robbed.(this raises another issue of morality,married men who visit prostitutes..).But as you say,she shot them,robbed them,and on her way,probably feeling some regret i think deep down.Using her status as a hooker to entrap men,also probably does indicate an inner self-loathing she must have had."This is only way i can make any money?This is how low ive become?",kind of thing.So as bad as she became,i think not evil.Hindley was evil.I think no psychiatrist ever actually could deduce how an ordinary girl,could be persuaded to indulge in such wickedness,no matter HOW in love she was.

She was probably a borderline sociopath. Sociopaths often can appear wholly ordinary, with the same interests as the rest of us. They are often aware of what correct moral behaviour is, and find it easy to behave decently and come across as decent people when they want to. But they lack any inner moral compass, and are thus very easily led into evil if they meet someone so inclined who excites them.

Clearly, Hindley herself felt no deep, self-generated, inner sexual compulsion to kill and torture as Brady did, and probably never would have done any such thing if she hadn't met someone like him. But that does not exonerate her of the charge of being evil. Because, when she met Brady who was into this sick shit, she chose to go along with it out of total enthusiasm for her man, and became a full and active participant. She felt no moral qualms at all, because I don't think that - as a sociopath - she knew what a genuine moral qualm felt like. She'd simply aways done what was expected of her before because it was easier. She probably found Brady's "difference" exciting in itself and was certainly soon enjoying it all as much as he was. But a sociopath certainly knows what wrong is even if they have no feelings about it themselves.

I think Hindley is actually much more similar to Karla Homolka than most people realise.

[F.W 5,734]

This is one reason i love this site!Total perversion,tinged with deep and intelligent topics.Cant beat it!:thumbsup:

[F.W 5,734]

Like last week,had a discussion with Kevin about the failings of the design of the Lockheed P-38 fighter plane.Amazing!

[steve25805 126,015]

Claire Nicholls:-

Here we have what appears to be a sadistic female sociopath.

Claire Nicholls lived for a time with her partner, Andrew Gardner, but when other men were invited to move in her behaviour towards him became abusive and rapidly escalated into sadistic brutality. Nicholls herself inflicted most of the tortures over many weeks, which included deliberate starvation, constant whippings and beatings, and cuts to his body so deep that tendons were exposed. He was regularlyly jumped up and down on for fun - by the time of his death several of his ribs were broken. He was burned with cigarettes and cigarette lighters, and tied naked to a scalding hot radiator. He was also frequently made to get into a bath whereupon Nicholls would delight in pouring freshly boiled water from the kettle all over his feet and legs. She and male aquaintances also used sharp instruments to play noughts and crosses on his body.

Outwardly, Nicholls appeared to be a loving and caring mother - and very friendly and pleasant in the eyes of her neighbours with whom she regularly chatted. And her house was always spotlessly clean, with the kids well dressed and fed. Yet inside, Gardner was banned from the furniture and made to lie on newspaper and suchlike so that his constant bleading wouldn't mess up the place. Her children were encouraged to watch the tortures, and think of them as both funny and fun and encouraged to participate by jumping up and down on the victim themselves like it was all just a fun game. Claire never gave an iota of moral guidance on how wrong any of this was. On the contrary she praised and encouraged it and her children were led to believe that this was entirely normal.

Eventually after many weeks, the malnourished and critically injured and brutalised victim, no longer capable even of standing, let alone walking, succumbed to the cumulative effects of his injuries and died.

Now that is surely a female as evil as any man one can imagine?

Here is some more info....

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/complex-sex-life-sick-killer-1409799