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Pete2304

So.....gun control

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For as long as I can remember I've been as confused as I have been appalled at the lack of desire from millions of Americans to make changes that would result in much stricter regulation when it comes to gun ownership.

There are far too many examples to even attempt to brush over so I will just go with one of the most recent ones. A woman is shot in the back and killed by her two year old whilst driving. Now I have a six year old son, he can be a pain when he gets bored in the back of the car, he moans that he wants sweets or that he doesn't like the music. So, sometimes I give in and stop for sweets etc etc. I don't recall (and I'm pretty sure about this), ever giving him a gun to play with to pass the time.

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We just had the 20th anniversary of the Port Arthur killings, 35 dead (men , women and kids) with another 24 wounded. This resulted in the Government tossing any form of gun regulation out of the Australian way of life. You can legally own a weapon, but you need a damn good reason to have it approved. The ones I had at the time were all traded in under the Government buy back deal. This included a Mossberg shotgun, a Winchester .222 and an old Army .303. There was also a Henry's .50 cal, but that was sold to a collector in the USA, after it was rendered inoperable.

Surprisingly, there was little opposition to this, everything went relatively smoothly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)

Wiki link if you want to have a read.

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This is a whole new can of worms being opened right here, lol.

The Americans in particular often feel very strongly about their so-called "right to bear arms".

I sense another shitstorm brewing between Egwalrus and myself, lol.

My take on it is simple. The need for gun control is a no brainer. The ready availability of weaponry to almost everybody simply makes it incredibly easy for every nutjob with a deluded reason of his own imagination to get one. And then go and commit yet another Columbine style massacre. Many dozens, even hundreds, of innocents, including school kids, are being slaughtered every year in America in the name of their right to bear arms.

I believe their kids' right to live, and to live free from the fear of yet another school ground shooting spree, ought to be more important than anyone's right to tote a gun around.

Here in the UK we have no such "right". Pistols and hand guns are illegal, whilst rifle or shotgun ownership requires a legally approved license, with a good reason for wanting it, and an absence of a criminal record or adverse psychiatric history being necessary requirements.

And guess what? The roof hasn't fallen in. We are not all living in a Fascist state. We still have our freedoms. And we very rarely get shooting sprees of any kind. The last big one here was nearly 20 years ago! How many have occurred in the USA in the last 20 years? I doubt whether we have enough fingers and toes to count them on. Most of them committed by nutjobs who'd never be let anywhere near a firearm here!

One need only compare the per capita fatal shooting rates of the USA with the UK to make the point.

UK - 6 per year per 10 million

USA - 343 per year per 10 million

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I am a total supporter of gun control by definition

Gun control is the ability to put the second round into the hole made by the first one

The basis of the United States is the Constitution. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is a part of that document.

I note that the mass shootings that have everyone crying for gun control have all occurred in gun free zones.

Some of the highest murder rates are in areas where there are the strictest gun laws. Chicago, DC and other such areas make it almost impossible to legally carry a gun, so the only ones with the guns are the criminals.

With materials available at the local home improvement store, I can build a functional firearm in about an hour. It may not be pretty, but it would be functional

It has been said that in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. Disarming law abiding citizens makes them easier targets for those who do not care about the law.

If citizens of other countries want to submit to being disarmed, that is their choice. I, as an American, will not. If you want to take my guns, you will have to pry them from my cold dead hands

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No one needs 50 assault rifles in their basement not matter how much they complain they have a right to them.

It is called the Bill of Rights, not the bill of needs. I want to know how you define "assault" rifle. The only difference between a so called assault rifle and an so called hunting rifle is the way that they look. The "assault rifle looks "Scary"

I do not have 50 rifles in my basement. The main reason for this is my home is built on a slab, and does not have a basement. I have guns. I will not say how many that I have, or what I have, but leave it at the idea that I a quantity that will allow me to protect myself and my family if needed. I do not have "enough" firearms and ammunition, because as long as there are threats in this world, there is no such thing as enough protection.

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If you want to change the Constitution, there is a specific amendment process that is outlined. So far in spite of the fear mongering from the liberals the idea of changing the second amendment is not popular with the people.

The best gun salesman is Obozo. Every time he tries to restrict gun owners rights, more people buy more firearms

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If I am in a situation where I have to draw a gun, I am prepared to take a life if needed. I have no desire to do so, but I will not hesitate to neutralize a threat

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Ah yes, the Constitution. It is our right to bear arms, it's part of the second amendment etc etc. So here's the thing, it used to be ok to own slaves, then eventually people who owned slaves began to lose the argument and it became outlawed. You didn't used to be allowed to drink, then eventually enough people said well you know what this is ridiculous and so two amendments were made to the constitution. That's the thing about amendments, they can be amended.

The one argument and the only argument pro gun lobbies have is....we like guns.

If you have your ammunition and gun kept in separate parts of the house then they offer about as much protection as a paper front door. In Australia, after what is still the worst civilian massacre in history, there were thankfully enough sensible people who said that's enough now, this can never happen again. And guess what? Since then, in Australia, it hasn't. Not once.

The very fact that every school child in the United States is aware of the term "active shooter" should, tell you all you need to know.

Your "right to bear arms" came about in case the citizens were ever forced to rise up against a tyrannical government and overthrow it by force. Times have changed. Actually, thinking about it, if Trump gets in.....

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Of course the gun loving lot, did come out with a cracking argument after the one of the more recent attacks which led to children being wheeled out of their classroom in body bags...."well if the teachers and the security had been armed, this wouldn't have happened". Erm......no, if you didn't allow mentally disturbed individuals to buy guns as easily as I can buy a mars bar, then it wouldn't have happened.

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Once again, if you, as a citizen of the United States, want the Constitution changed, there is a procedure to do that. We The People have not been willing to do so, and I do not see that changing.

The simple fact is that most mass shootings have happened in gun free (defenseless victim) zones. There have been many cases (ignored by the liberal media) when an armed citizen has stopped an attack. This does not fit their narrative that "guns are evil and only the government forces should have guns.

Look at history. Hitler convinced the people that they should give up their guns. Look how well that worked out for the Jewish people

It has been said that an armed man is a citizen, a defenseless (disamed) one is a subject.

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Not allowing mentally disturbed individuals to buy guns is a good thing. The problem is that this would require all liberals to turn in weapons

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Or.....and here's a thought....you all turn in your guns and take the gamble that it's more likely that gun crime would reduce as a result (as has been seen in other countries who altered their gun laws) than you would end up regretting it because when the next Hitler was voted into power you would all be sat there saying if only we hadn't handed our guns in, this wouldn't be happening now?

As you say though, some massacres have occurred in gun free zones. It is a pity that anyone of the mindset to wander into a school and open fire on innocent children didn't see the sign as they drove into town. Maybe the answer is more guns, but bigger signs?

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Many of us are not willing to gamble our lives and safety on the idea that somehow we will be magically made safer when only those who refuse to obey laws are armed.

Murder is against the law now. People still murder.

The worst mass school killing in US history was in Bath Michigan, where there was no firearm used. The school was bombed.

Maybe the answer is not having locations where people are defenseless, and instead protecting the children and adults. Mass shooters pick locations where they think they will be the only ones armed

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Yes the thing about bombings though is that every country in the world does whatever they can to ensure people don't get hold of bombs rather than having a 2 for 1 sale on them in Wallmart. If the worst school massacre in history was a bombing then by your logic, the answer to that would be to arm all citizens with bombs, because if the school guard had a bomb that day, it wouldn't have happened, he could have blown up the individual first.

The reason you have so many more shootings than the rest of the civilised world is because of the ease of access to firearms. That is a fact. Do you have any idea how difficult it would be for me to get hold of a gun? I'm guessing that if I was utterly desperate to then eventually through having to meet a whole lot of very unsavoury people who may sell me a gun or may just rob me, that I could manage it. However, it would take a lot of doing and a hell of a lot of money. I believe the price for a handgun on the black market here is somewhere in the region of £10,000.

So then we compare that to a young man in the States. Let's call him Kevin. Now Kevin is 19 and he's really mad because his girlfriend dumped him and his teacher showed him up in class because he gave a stupid answer to a question. So after playing Call of Duty for 18 hours straight, Kevin loses the plot and snaps. He goes into his dad's basement, takes his dad's gun and goes and opens fire on his teacher, his girlfriend and anyone else who gets in the way. Now if Kevin had to find £10,000 and some gangsters willing to deal with him, maybe Kevin would have eventually calmed down enough to realise this was a bit of a silly idea after all?

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I could, if I desired, make a bomb out of common items that you find in most households. I am not going to list anything here, simply because I do not want to give any mental defective any ideas, but suffice it to say that it would not be difficult.

The problem with your example is not the gun, it is the young man who has mental issues. If there was no gun, he could easily have a knife, a Molotov cocktail, or any number of other weapons to do what he wants to do. If he is the only one with a weapon, he has the power and it is hard to stop him.

Let's change your scenario a bit. The young man decides to take a gun and shoot people. He walks into the school, and as soon as he is seen as a threat, several people pull guns and give him a choice of dropping his weapon or losing his life. Why not ban Call of Duty which you seem to think is part of the problem?

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I have no issue with Call of Duty, was just part of the narrative, it told a better tale. The problem with Kevin, is that instead of planting a homemade bomb, he's already fired of 600 rounds from an automatic weapon and left a classroom full of dead bodies before anyone has figured out he's a threat. You keep stating that you could make weapons out of simple household items but in all likelihood Kevin would probably make a mess of it. He would have to google it all, probably go and buy some stuff, by which time his parents are probably home and they're all like "Kevin your mother wants to know what youre doing with three washing up liquid bottles and six bags of nails".

You can't stop people with bombs. There are armed police in every airport in the world, didn't stop the Brussels attacks and since nobody knew it was coming until the terrorists blew themselves up, giving every man and his dog a gun wouldn't have helped. Chances are though, if everyone in Belgium had a gun and could buy them as easily as you can, Belgium would see a huge increase in gun crime.

If you just take away all the guns, people are just that little. It more considerate and think well as much as I like playing with guns, this whole murdering of children in classrooms probably has gone far enough now, then just maybe, there would be less incidents of gun crime in the States.

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If I shouted to my six year old "Active shooter, active shooter" he would stand there for a second then probably burst out laughing and say "daddy why are you talking so silly?" If you shout that to any six year old in America they dive under the nearest desk. I know which society I prefer to live in.

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Criminals still have weapons here, a couple of times per week there is some report of a drive by shooting somewhere. Random police checks have turned over a few as well, guns in cars, guns found in houses, one car had $2 million in cash in the boot (trunk). If you are caught with one of these you are put away for a 2 year minimum just for the weapon, any other charges you may rack up are just added to your holiday.

The only thing I have here is a Diamond hunting compound bow, not used for hunting, any animals in the bush around here are all protected, we had an interest in archery at one time, but grew out of it. Even this was required to be registered and pretty much covered under the same storage / access law as owning a rifle. It does look scary when one of the girls are using it, weighted, counter balanced and the sights mounted, but she can use it easily, any of us can. Come to think of it, this may be more dangerous due to the silence of it.

I live in a farming community and there is lots of things that can be cobbled together that can be dangerous, easily found on the Internet. The problem is why would you want to? This is what the girls said after reading the Port Arthur report, why would anyone want to hold a 6 year old girl and fire a shot into her chest?

I have all the usual games, Call of Duty, Destiny and whatever, none of them make us want to go out and blow shit up, that's what the game is for, and it's just that, just a game. (Yes, the girls play these too, not just a male thing)

We have nothing like the Constitution of th USA, the Land of Aus is basically the UK model, but we like it here, we like how the country has changed, how it has kept up with the technology, but that's just us talking, lol.

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Snap here with knife crime. It was starting to become an all too common occurrence. So the government sat down and decided to introduce much tougher penalties for being caught with a knife in public and there is now a mandatory prison sentence. Instead of half the country arguing that I'm actual fact, if we all started carrying knives round, we could disarm someone before they had managed to get to their fifth classmate.....every right minded person in the country said yep, if you're caught carrying a knife you need to be punished. Shockingly, since this has been introduced knife crime has reduced. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

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Of course criminals here still have weapons, however it's a damn sight more difficult to kill a classroom full of people with a crossbow or a pair of scissors out the kitchen drawer than it is with three handguns and an assault rifle. I can think of two (still two too many) occasions in the last 12 months where a kid has gone into a school with a knife and one of these cost the teacher his life. I dread to think what would have happened if the kid who was capable of stabbing his teacher would have done if his dad had a basement full of guns lying around.

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The problem with Kevin, is that instead of planting a homemade bomb, he's already fired of 600 rounds from an automatic weapon and left a classroom full of dead bodies before anyone has figured out he's a threat.

First of all, you would be very hard pressed to find a fully automatic (often called a machine gun) in the hands of an ordinary citizen. There is a huge difference between a fully automatic weapon, and a semi automatic. A full automatic will continue firing once you pull the trigger until either you release it or you expend all the ammunition. A semi automatic requires you to pull the trigger for each shot.

Secondly, the idea that you can fire 600 rounds without anyone figuring out you are a threat is ludicrous. With a common handgun, the magazine usually will hold 8-15 rounds (although you may be able to find larger clips that may hold about 25) Even with the larger clip, 600 rounds would require that you imaginary shooter reload 23 times.

Evil will exist, that is a fact. Laws only control law abiding people. The idea that we should ban weapons is not realistic. Knives and guns are tools. They can be used for good or evil. The idea that the tool is the problem, rather than the evil person, is where I have a real disagreement with those who think they can make the world safe if we all disarm and sit in a circle singing Kumbaya

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I have no idea how many rounds can be fired from whichever type of gun. Do you know why I have no idea? Because I don't live in a society where guns are a problem or even commonplace. We banned guns and made it very very difficult to get hold of one. So the criminals turned to knives. Now knives are bad in the wrong hands but likely to do less damage than a gun. Then we banned knives and made a prison sentence long enough that it stopped a lot of the horrible idiots who carried them to look cool doing so. A lot of the little 16 year old idiots who wanted to look cool then turned to walking round with pit bulls to try and impress their friends. Now I hate dangerous dogs too, but if young angry men are walking round with a dog with bug teeth rather than a gun, that's a better option to me. Don't ever recall a report of a classroom pit bull massacre.

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And if a gun is a tool, as you say (and bear in mind there are people here, mainly farmers who after passing strict tests can own a weapon legally), then you would keep the gun locked away, and the ammunition locked away separately because a tool is something you need to work with. You say you need yours for protection, well the thing is, if someone who may want to rob your house couldn't go into his local store and buy a gun along with his morning paper maybe you don't need a gun to protect you anymore?

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A gun that is locked away unloaded is useless when needed. Would you say that you should leave the lug wrench from your car locked in the garage unless you need it?

You have no idea what is required to buy a gun legally, especially a handgun. There is a Federal background check that is run on every purchaser and anyone with a felony record is denied. The majority of the criminals get their guns either on the black market or by stealing them

You admit that you know nothing about firearms, but even so you think they are "bad" and should be banned. Perhaps if you were to become more knowledgeable on the subject, you would understand more

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Have been rather busy last couple of days but I can't just leave it at you know nothing about guns so that's the argument done. I don't know much at all about guns, you're correct. I don't know which particular type of gun is best for whatever it is you'd like to shoot. I don't know which automatic weapon fires off the most number of rounds in a minute etc etc.

I don't know much about chainsaws either, haven't a clue which one would be best to cut down an oak tree and which would be best to cut down a redwood, but would rather people didn't walk round the streets carrying them all the same.

Your point about purchasing, says little more than if you haven't got a record, you can buy away as you like. If we decided to make it illegal for criminals to buy loaves of bread but ok for everyone else, there would still be a lot of criminals able to enjoy a bacon sandwich of a morning.

The black market is flooded of course because of the sheer number of fire arms available.

I did notice since we last spoke that a bloke who was fired from his job went back that afternoon and shot two people dead. Something he couldn't have done here or in most other countries. I didn't get the chance to check if he did that in a gun safe zone or not.

You say a gun locked away unloaded is useless but you've also said it's a tool. So the tool bit was basically just a tool for shooting people then? If it was a tool, that implies it's used for work, in which case keeping it locked away wouldn't be an issue. I keep kitchen knives, hammers etc etc out of reach of my little boy on the basis that he could hurt himself or someone else with them. If I need a knife to cook with or a hammer to put a picture up, I will get them out then.

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