Islam

[Pete2304 36]

Yeah I was wondering when this would start. There is of course the option of looking at as maybe if he hadn't been allowed to buy the guns in the first place......

And if I'm not mistaken, haven't gay people been targeted by right wing Christian groups as well?

One arse hole doesn't speak for everyone nor does he represent the views of every Muslim. How about you take a look (and I haven't yet) to see how many Muslims are condemning the awful events of last night because I guarantee you will find plenty.

[Pete2304 36]

There was an attack on a soldier in London, must be getting on for two years ago now by two radical (and from what came out in court, mentally ill) Terrorists, associating themselves with ISIS. They were armed with machetes and butchered a man in broad daylight in the most horrific manner. God help anyone else nearby if those two had been able to get their hands on firearms but that's another argument.

Within 24 hours they had been condemned and denounced by nigh on every high profile Muslim cleric in the country.

I'm not condoning the utterly disgusting events of last night but you simply cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

[Pete2304 36]

What in the bloody hell is a gun free zone exactly? Sounds about as much use as a chocolate fire guard.

[Pete2304 36]

You may have expected me to comment but as did I with you.

You can't (and nor can I), have it both ways. If Obama had met less resistance and if Clinton is elected and carries on with the proposals, that individual, who was an American citizen, would not have been allowed to buy those weapons.

Of course, the flip side is that you would state that Trump's proposal of a blanket ban on Muslims entering the country is vindicated by this and no doubt he will be all over this. But you cannot have it both ways Egwalrus. As a country, you collectively are happy with selling this man weapons.

One fruitcake doesn't account for a whole bakery. How many Muslim leaders have condemned the attacks? I'm guessing more than the one dispicable individual who carried it out?

[Pete2304 36]

I've travelled to football matches where out of the 3,000 of us that went to an away game, 20 or so thugs and hooligans calling themselves fans have started fights. Does that mean I'm a thug and a hooligan? Because like 99% of the rest of us that we're there I was disgusted and was more than happy when they were arrested and extremely pleased when they were subsequently identifies by cctv and given life bans from following the football team that is very close to my heart.

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

Government here has also been concerned, now that Isis is self destructing, they will take their war to the streets and if they're prepared to die for it, then who will be safe. How many more "cleanskins" are going to be brain washed into doing something like this? Some pro-Islamic forums are foaming at the mouth now, and Isis is only one of the bad eggs, there are 50 more high profile groups also hating the western way of life.

We have nothing against gay, lesbian, bi or transgender people, but that's not the point, no one should go out to have a good time and expect to get slaughtered.

Our thoughts go out to the people of Orlando.

Scot_Lover, Maigh and Mary

[Pete2304 36]

Listen, I will state right now, again but just to clarify my position. What happened is beyond words and is deeply upsetting. I do not have any sympathy and nothing but feelings of utter contempt towards anyone who would wish to do something like that. All I have ever said is you can't judge every member of any group by the actions of a few.

We are at war with terrorism, and as I've said as well on this thread a few times, Isis are screwed as a military force and you are both quite right, this is the next step now. Euro 2016 ongoing in France and there is a deep undertone of fear that an attack will take place but we have to carry on as normal because if we don't, they've won.

However, the reason ISIS are finished (or on their way to being) as a military force is because an army of Muslims (in coalition with air strikes from NATO) has all but defeated them and yesterday cut off their final supply route to Europe.

[Pete2304 36]

I am though, also getting a little tired of all the ridiculous notion, and all the criticism I have received by simply stating that out of a couple of billion Muslims worldwide, maybe they aren't all violent terrorist loving extremists.

The counter argument over what must be a couple of months now has basically been, they are all bad.

Logic would probably dictate that I'm right. If we've really got 2 billion people on the planet who are intent on war against anyone who doesn't follow Islam, I'm yet to see it. Logic would dictate that maybe the blanket bigotry displayed during this and other threads is possibly a little wide of the mark.

[Pete2304 36]

And yet if you hadn't sold the man the guns in the first place? We are just going round in endless circles here and are never going to get anywhere but the irony will be lost on millions of Trump supporters who will see these awful events as vindication of his immigration policy.

We won't have any gun free zones in the UK. You just get arrested and sent to prison if you are found to be carrying one. Simple policy, but we like it.

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

The actions of those "few" though are what's doing all the damage, creating and increasing people's mistrust of the religion. We've had women, dressed in a burka, beat up on suburban trains, mosques have been fire bombed and some suburbs have been ostracised because of the actions of those "few".

Man Haron Monis, the Iranian who bought Sydney to a standstill was one of them, wanted on 40 counts of sexual abuse against women, was on bail at the time. The weapon he used was a 50 year old French shotgun, the only thing he could get his hands on and only because the thing was an antique. You may not be able to buy a gun here, but there are plenty of other options available with no questions asked.

[Pete2304 36]

Yes and I can find you plenty more examples of terrorist behaviour, could write pages and pages filled with examples of disgraceful behaviour by people who associate themselves with Islam. Does that cover every single man, woman and child who are Muslim though? Honestly, does it?

[Pete2304 36]

In this particular instance, the people who have argued about the right of American citizens to be allowed to buy a gun are now upset that he's used it in the wrong way for one reason only.... because this particular nut job was a brown man. So on that basis all Islam is evil. Take a look at the last 20 years of mass shootings in America and apply the same logic. You'd have to condemn pretty much every religion in the country.

If a Christian nut job goes crazy and starts shooting people because he heard voices from Jesus then he's either shot dead at the scene or locked up for life. But that doesn't mean all Christians are like that of course. When a brown man goes crazy though, all Muslims are evil. Good logic that.

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

Yes and I can find you plenty more examples of terrorist behaviour, could write pages and pages filled with examples of disgraceful behaviour by people who associate themselves with Islam. Does that cover every single man, woman and child who are Muslim though? Honestly, does it?

No, it does not, the militant arsehole ones are doing that themselves, doing it to the religion in general.

[Pete2304 36]

They aren't doing it to the religion in general, because they don't represent the religion in general. Despite me asking on numerous occasions how it can be explained that, if all Muslims are bad, it is a Muslim army who are slowly but surely ridding the world of ISIS, nobody has answered that.

I have said till I'm blue in the face that I hate terrorism, I hate the inhuman attitude of those who carry out terror attacks under any guise be that religious or otherwise. I cannot imagine what it is like to be involved in a terror attack, or to suffer because of the actions of these brainwashed idiots.

I agree on so many points but I will not keep quiet when it's been claimed that all Muslims are bad, they must all be discriminated against and treated with suspicion. We might as well ask the South Africans to resume their policies on which part of the bus you are allowed to sit on.

[F.W 5,734]

Its as if Hitler had written Mein Kampf a few years ago,and people began going out and shooting Jews etc.Then saying,its nothing to do with Hitler,the people are already just wicked and would do it anyway,as Nazism is only a belief and can be misunderstood,as it doesnt actually tell you to kill people.Islam is fine on its own,but perhaps western Govts need to look seriously as to whether it gels within our broad minded western values-which it patently does not.

[Pete2304 36]

What on earth does this have to do with the period of Nazi Germany from 70 years ago? I'm not even sure you quite understand the point you are trying to make, I certainly don't. Oh, and try being a little more liberal with your use of the space bar.

[Pete2304 36]

I've just spent half an hour reading condemnations from Muslims leaders both in the Orlando area and worldwide. This man was mentally ill, he had attacked his wife and had been investigated previously because of his extremist views. His ex wife in fact states that he had a bi-polar personality. And yet this fuckwit was allowed to buy weapons.

America seems to be horribly divided at the minute which is sad because here, when dreadful events have taken place in the UK, going back all through history, we tend to stand as one. When Lee Rigby was killed, Tory, Labour and Lib Dems stood as one. Nobody used it as an opportunity for political gain.

[Pete2304 36]

Ok joker, in the countries where such actions take place, should you stand up against this you would find yourself stoned to death or worse, as well. So that covers that.

In civilised countries, should you actually look on the Internet or pick up a newspaper once in a while, you would see that there is widespread condemnation from the Muslim community when any terror attack takes place. I did also notice today that the leader of a Baptist church in Orlando wholly condoned the attack in Orlando on account of it being against gay people.

So.....riddle me this.....if all Muslims are bad because one Muslim man attacked a gay night club, does that mean all Christians are bad because one Christian stated he was glad that gay people were murdered in cold blood because of their sexuality?

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

I don't know what it's like to live in the UK at this time, but Islam and the Muslim way of life is getting increasingly difficult to live with here. When the Prime Minister can't go to a military service to honour dead soldiers, but can have dinner with The Grand Mufti at a Ramadan dinner, something is drastically wrong.

These people are managing to enforce Halal certification onto everyone, supermarkets, restaurants, you can't get bacon on a Mc Donald's burger anymore, you have to ask for it, and it has to be cooked in "Pork Products Only" microwave.

Mary made an innocent mistake once, by asking for a pork roast at a shopping centre butcher. She was screamed at in some hideous sounding language and had a meat cleaver waved about in her face, scared the shit out of her, and being a Scot, arced up, in Gaelic. The situation only being diffused by us being told that it was a Halal butcher. This was pointed out to us, a small sign, written in Arabic, on the display case. I had no idea what the thing meant, and told them that, didn't seem to make any difference.

The communities where they have set up camp are places where normal Aussies do not care to visit, local clerics are campaigning to have Sharia Law implemented in these areas, further closing these communities off. An entire swimming pool complex and gymnasium has to close to the general public for a day just to cater for them. They just do not want to be Australian, no desire to be part of our way of life, dragging their fucked up way of life into ours. They take to the streets, openly declaring themselves as 'anti racists' to protest that their way of life is not being heard, up to 10,000 at a time. When Australians march against these rallies, it always ends up as a running street battle with everyday Australians made out to be the bad guys.

Found this Facebook post, sums it up nicely:

Muslims must understand that they must obey Australia's laws adapt and integrate into Australia's multicultural community its customs, traditions, its way of life, because it was the country that you have chosen to emigrate to.

They have to understand that you are the ones that must integrate and learn to live in Australia.

They need to understand that they have to change their life style, not the Australians who so generously welcomed you.

They must understand that Australians are not racist or xenophobic. We accept many immigrants, from many countries with different cultures and religions, contradicting to many Muslim countries which do not accept non-Muslim immigrants.

For this reason, the Australians are not willing to give up their identity and their culture.

Finally, they have to understand that in Australia, with its Judeo-Christian roots, Christmas trees, churches and religious festivals, ANZAC day celebration and religion must remain in the private sphere.

The Australian population has the right to refuse any concessions to Islam and Sharia law.

For Muslims, who are not in agreement with the Australian culture and religion and do not feel comfortable in Australia under their laws and customs , there are 57 beautiful Muslim countries in the world, most of them under-populated and ready to receive them with open arms, In accordance with Sharia law.

Simply get on a plane or a boat and leave.

We used to be called the lucky country, I don't think this applies anymore.

[Pete2304 36]

Not all Muslims wish to see the hands chopped off those who commit robbery, nor do they wish to see gay people or adulterers stoned to death. That's why so many Muslims are fleeing areas where ISIS have gained control. What is it about this point that so many people are struggling to comprehend.

I don't doubt that there are some, of the more radical immigrants who wish to impose Sharia Law withing their communities. There are here as well and I wholeheartedly disagree with it. However, most don't. There are right wing sections of society in Eastern Europe who would gladly resurrect the policies of Nazi Germany but thankfully, they are a tiny minority.

This board, and society as a whole really needs to stop singling out the extremes and then using that as an excuse for blanket condemnation. Your experience in the butchers sounds....extreme. If one of my Muslim friends happened to own a butchers and you walked in and asked for a pork steak I can assure you he would not wave a meat cleaver at you.

As I've stated, many pages ago (and probably had a few less grey hairs than I've no doubt grown this last couple of months while this argument has been going on!), Muslim friends of mine put up Xmas trees and buy their kids presents. They may not believe in Jesus but they just like the idea of treating their kids and enjoying the festive season. I also have Muslim friends who will come to the pub for a game of pool and to watch the football. They may choose to not drink but that's up to them. Do they sound like the kind of people who would hate the West, would wave meat cleavers around or run riot in the streets?

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

The butcher thing was scary at the time, but so much has been let slide, I don't think it will ever be the same again. Kids at school can't sing the national anthem anymore, it may "offend" someone, xmas carols are not played in public places anymore, it may "offend" someone, the Anzac Day march has even drawn protest, it "offended" someone. We cannot win here, I'm glad I moved away from the city when I did, and when I sell this place, we are moving to a small country town where no one knows a Muslim.

[steve25805 126,109]

The butcher thing was scary at the time, but so much has been let slide, I don't think it will ever be the same again. Kids at school can't sing the national anthem anymore, it may "offend" someone, xmas carols are not played in public places anymore, it may "offend" someone, the Anzac Day march has even drawn protest, it "offended" someone. We cannot win here, I'm glad I moved away from the city when I did, and when I sell this place, we are moving to a small country town where no one knows a Muslim.

We have a similar situation here. But do you know what? With the exception of a handful of extremist nutjobs, most of the muslims here don't give a shit about us celebrating Christmas, or Easter, or Remembrance Sunday, or Saint George's Day. It is mostly politically correct - and generally indiginous white middle class university-educated liberal types - who worry about such shit. Most of the muslims aren't bothered about it in the slightest.

[Pete2304 36]

The very nature of the panicky approach adopted by local authorities is in itself offensive to both Muslims and Christians because both religions essentially preach peach and tolerance. Muslim mates of mine either celebrate Christmas in the same way we do or are just glad of the extra days off work but not a one of them would want us not to and each and every one of them finds it somewhat bemusing when am overly PC stance is taken. I have Xmas cards from Muslim friends but then I also enjoyed celebrating Eid a couple of years back when I spent time with a friend's family.

One of my Muslim mates absolutely hates Xmas. But that's because he bought his wife a coffee machine two years back and it went down like a lead balloon!

[Pete2304 36]

Incorrect. He banned adverts wherby stick thin models were shown to be aspirational

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

This pic made the news here, for a couple of reasons. Australians think it's offensive, propping themselves against Federal Parliament dressed like this.

The Islam community want all Australian women to follow this example, I don't think that will go down well.

Are we wrong to resist this?