Islam

[steve25805 126,149]

Ok, perhaps this needs to be fully aired by those with strong feelings.

What is the nature of Islam? And what of Muslims themselves?

That some Muslims in many parts of the world are doing terrible deeds in the name of Islam is undeniable. And one of the worst, in fact probably the very worst so far, was the destruction of the twin towers in New York with the loss of countless lives. This included several hundred brave firefighters as well as police officers, amongst others.

I am often guilty of under-estimating the strength of feeling that many Americans feel about this, and the anger this causes and the way that anger influences opinions. I often mistake raw feelings expressing anger for simplistic bigotry. And I have been guilty of all that elsewhere on this forum on this topic due to not stepping back and thinking a little more. It is not nice for me to piss all over people's strong feelings when they have a right to feel strongly, for which I wish to apologise to Egwalrus in particular.

I am thinking to myself right now - what if something on this scale went down in my country, in spite of the mitigating presence of large numbers of integrated Muslims who would condemn it en masse? Well, let's just say the shit would truly hit the fan in terms of angry reactions. So who the fuck am I to judge?

Anyway, Islam.

At it's heart it has many similarities with Christianity, in that it is based upon the supposedly sacred writngs in a holy book, in this case the Koran. And as with the Bible, so the Koran contains huge amounts of contradictory shit. Some verses preach world peace whilst others preach Jihad. Fact is, in essence, this is similar to the Bible. Both Koran and Bible contain highly contradictory good stuff and bad stuff, and act as mirrors upon the soul of believers, because by picking and choosing which bits to ignore and which bits to adhere to, both can be used for good or evil.

But it is not the religions themselves that are good or evil. Good or evil resides in men's - and women's - hearts. Today, very few Christians interpret the Bible in evil ways, but this was not always so. In former centuries Bible quotes have been used to justify religious wars of extermination, terrible tortures inflicted upon non-believers, the burnings alive of thousands, often women, for alleged witchcraft, slavery, race supremacy, the subjugation of women, etc.

The way extremist Christians in former times used selective Bible quotes to justify terrible evils is not so very different to the way extremist Muslims do the same today. But, it is not the religions themselves that are intrinsically evil, but the way they are interpreted. Evil people have always exploited religion for evil ends, because the Abrahamic religions in particular include so much contradictory shit that they are open to interpretation.

But not all Muslims interpret the Koran in evil ways. Like most Christians with their Bibles today, many Muslims focus upon the better aspects of Koranic verses, and truly believe Islam to be a religion of peace in consequence. These Muslims are convinced that the evil-doers are wholly wrong to interpret the Koran as they do. Just like most Christians today regard it as wholly wrong to have ever interpreted the Bible to justify slavery, for example.

So Islam itself is no more intrinsically good or bad than Christianity and many other religions. It is evil people interpreting it in evil ways for evil purposes, by selectively focussing on negative Koranic verses - often out of context - who are the problem here.

And these evil doers WANT all Muslims to see this as a war of the west against the entire religion of Islam, and they want us to see it that way too. If we make that idea a reality, we'll be handing the extremists the greatest victory they could ever have. We'll be the most effective recruiting sergeant they could ever hope for.

The majority of Muslims are no more good or bad than any other average Joe on the planet. They are at their core just fellow human beings with feelings and hopes and fears like the rest of us. By getting most of them on our side, we'll inflict the greatest defeat on the extremist nutjobs that we could ever inflict.

[Daz 4]

Islam=Stone Age

[steve25805 126,149]

Islam=Stone Age

More like medieval, insofar as the extremists are concerned. But it is notably similar to the way Christians behaved a few hundred years back.

A subject like this requires perspective, not simplistic assumptions that require little thought and are just lazy statements.

Because there are billions of Muslims in the world and they do not all think alike. Many are much more similar to modern Christians.

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

This guy says it all ...... true Aussie, language is a bit strong, but it's fairly normal here.

https://www.facebook.com/libtardmedia/videos/1657917184425632/

Let me know what you think.

[steve25805 126,149]

This guy says it all ...... true Aussie, language is a bit strong, but it's fairly normal here.

https://www.facebook.com/libtardmedia/videos/1657917184425632/

Let me know what you think.

I do love the directness of you guys. It is kind of refreshing and amusing. Made me chuckle a bit. Thing is, though, whilst his views appear not to differ too much from those of Egwalrus and Fannywatcher, there were too crucial differences. Firstly, he did not use pejorative language against all of them without exception, viewing them as barbarians or whatever. And he acknowledged that not all Muslims are bad people and that the truly dangerous extremists are a small minority of them. That's what seperates racism and bigotry from genuine opinion.

And I agree with his views in regards to people wanting to come here - cos this applies as much to the UK as to Australia - needing to respect our way of life. He acknowledges their right to celebrate what they value, but not their right to expect us to change to suit them. And the fact is, the desire to change all around them and force people to conform to their chosen way of life is a common trait amongst all people of a religious bent, and not just Muslims, and one I oppose. His view on all religions being a pile of shit anyway does resonate with me very much and made me laugh.

One thing I do disagree with him on though is the notion that all the refugees are economic migrants. No doubt there are some amongst them of course, and it is up to us to determine who is merely an economic migrant and who is a genuine refugee. But after we went in there and fucked up their countries for them in pursuit of advantaging big US business interests - truth be known - we now have a situation where those ISIS nutjobs are running riot, opposed by a brutal dictator, Assad. Both sides are committing atrocities on a horrific scale. Civilians are being killed left, right and centre, their home towns being ripped to pieces, some of them trapped and starving. Assad's men are known to bring dissidents against the regime to heel, and forcing info out of them, by brutally torturing, often to death, their own children in front of them. Whilst the ISIS nutjobs go around crucifying non-believers, burning women alive for refusing to be sex slaves, throwing gays off tall buildings, and beheading, blowing up, and burning alive victims whose deaths are posted online for the pleasure of sickos and psychos everywhere.

Of course millions are fleeing from such horrors. We'd be on the next boat out ourselves if the same shit was going down where we lived. And most people do not put their own children in danger through treacherous sea crossings unless they are desperate to save them from an even greater threat. Yes the fittest ones are most likely to make it here simply because they are the fittest. But the refugee crisis is very real.

[steve25805 126,149]

I will say this about Islam / that of Muslims . That I WILL NEVER turn my back on them . In trusting them to be peaceful, PERIOD !!

As I have NOT seen any Muslims .Standing up against these clerics . Who speak HATE & KILLING of innocents !!

Until they rise up against this total evil . I will NOT trust them at all ............

Your media is very polarised, and often chooses not to report or focus very much attention on anything that doesn't suit it's agenda.

Here in the UK we have large numbers of Muslims, many of whom - especially the ones with a voice in the media - DO stand up and speak out against this evil. The fact that your media chooses not to report that is part of the problem you guys have.

And as for those evil nutjobs ISIS. Who do you think is fighting them now? Whose boots on the ground are slowly taking them down? They have air support from us, and we may have a few special ops units in there, but most of those fighting these scumbags on the ground are Muslims!!. If taking up arms and fighting against these ISIS scum is not taking a stand against Muslim extremism, I don't know what is.

Does your media actually report very much of that? Or does it depend upon which media you choose to watch?

[paul66 171]

...In Berlin the muslims had knackered to forbid, tomount a christmas tree in public place.

my meaning is, they should leave where they come from, they got nothing lost here.

They want to change our western "free world" in their muslim califat.....

that is terrorism in pure kind.

[Pete2304 36]

Read this thread when it started and meant to post. I was talking to a friend of mine a few weeks ago, not long after the Brussels atrocities. We argued about football for a while, he can't see why Ryan Giggs shouldn't get the Man Utd job, I went to great lengths to tell him he was talking utter garbage and should consider taking up netball because he clearly knew nothing about the beautiful game! Chatted cricket for a bit too, disagreed on the England selection for the T20 World Cup.

Ended up talking about the Brussels attacks. Well he was even more animated about this than he was about the football or the cricket. His description was utter scumbags who have no place in any society and have about as much to do with Islam as a lollipop. He added that the attackers and their sympathisers are disgusting vile individuals "who I wouldn't spit on if the were on fire".

My friend is a practicing Muslim.

[Pete2304 36]

If you met the friend I mentioned above and he sat there and told you how disgusted he was with terrorism, how he hated them committing atrocities in the name of Islam what would you say in reply to him?

[lordofcoatham1 179]

or maybe he should believe in just one less religion? i dont think islam is any less horrific than any of the other abrahamic religions, but do tell what these real religions are, is there a top 10?

[Pete2304 36]

Convert to a real religion? You're going with that argument are you? I'd love to hear your reasoning behind the notion that your God is better than his? I've heard some rubbish in my time but, well, you sir have just trumped the lot (no pun intended).

[Pete2304 36]

I also have to ask which bit of him saying he was disgusted by terrorist acts and that he felt they had no right to carry out their crimes in the name of Islam are you struggling to comprehend when you say he should stand up against terrorism?

[lordofcoatham1 179]

i think the silent majority of many if not all so called "peaceful" religions have stood idly by aand watched over indiferently to genocide for millenia

[Pete2304 36]

Except you're wrong. Many high profile Muslims in this country have condemned all acts of terrorism and stated that this has no place in their religion or in society as a whole. The problem we have here is the frighteningly high number of casual racists who have nothing of note to say. Empty vessels and all that....

[Pete2304 36]

This disgusting blanket condemnation of anyone who is born in a different country, or who believes in a different God is hard to actually stomach.

I'm 31 now but four years ago I was diagnosed with cancer. I had known for a very long time that I was poorly and had buried my head in the sand so deeply that by the time I sought help, my outlook was bleak. I was in that much pain and things had gotten that bad I told my doctor I just wanted to be left alone and to be made comfortable, I'd given up. However, he sat me down and said look, things aren't great, I won't lie but you know what Peter there is a chance we can deal with this. I protested till I was blue in the face but this doctor who must have my age if not younger didn't let it go. I walked out of his office but he didn't give up, rang me at three in the morning, phoned my mum, left voicemails till eventually I agreed. Four years later, touch wood I'm ok. At no point did this Muslim man preach hate to me, explode or try and force his religious beliefs on me. He did save my life though. But I suppose it would have been better had he been deported back to his own country (despite him having been brought up three miles down the road in Stockport)

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

Same kind of situation here, a lot of people do good in our society, it's just one or two in each community that start to agitate the others. The police jump on these nutters fairly quickly, several have been deported, one that managed to avoid being deported went on to hold up the Lindt Cafe in Martin Place. As you no doubt saw, this was also dealt with, unfortunately with a couple of people killed in the police raid.

We don't have a lot issues with "cleanskins", most of it comes from people who were let into the country, given a place to live, handed $12,000 aud, and set up with social benefits that don't require them to work. The Australian population get a little pissed that these people are allowed to protest all they get for nothing, demanding 'halal' certification, and try to implement "sharia law". Watch a video of a halal killed animal, or read up on sharia law, both of them are ugly and both are barbaric.

There was a video posted a while back, wasn't YouTube, about 2 women who walked the streets of Al Raqqa when Isis was ruling the city. When you see church officials carrying machine guns to keep the law, that is no church I want to be part of. The harshest part was the women back at their house, removing the double layer of clothing they had to wear. They told the camera "we just want to live again, take these things off and be a woman again".

[Pete2304 36]

There are a minority in every demographic of society, be that Muslim, female, homosexual, Patrot fans, people with brown hair etc etc who are criminal and have no place in society.

It's so tiring to see and hear the likes of Trump wanting to ban all Muslims from entering the country. Those women would give anything to get away from that situation and thankfully many have. They risked everything to flee this backwards ideology only to either never make it to Europe or to then have people saying they are potential terrorists who should be sent back home. They have no home, their way of life has been ruined by a group of brainwashed radicals.

I've stated in another thread, Waco happened in the name of Christianity, should that cast a slur on all Christians? Of course not.

[Pete2304 36]

But the group who were in charge of what happened were self pronounced Christians albeit with a radical and unrecognised take on their religion. Remind you of anything we've seen lately? You've taken a lot of trouble and time to dislike every post and comment I've made, maybe take some time to answer a few of the many questions and points that have been brought up.

[Pete2304 36]

Just wonder, if you found yourself in need of emergency medical care and the doctor on hand happened to be Asian, would you demand that he declare his religious beliefs and then be security vetted accordingly before he treated you?

[Pete2304 36]

And if your child was in a life and death situation, you would instruct that doctor to not treat your child and sooner let them die than have a Muslim doctor save their life?

[Pete2304 36]

You may not have any children but you wouldn't turn down medical care in an emergency as well you know be that to save the life of yourself or someone you loved. The relevance being, that America, along with many other countries, has a fair percentage of Muslim doctors.

Problem you've got is that you're not happy with me, to the point where you would probably argue with me that day was night but you know as well as I do, you're now making ridiculous comments.

You aren't happy because I'm not American and as you have stated, you feel my comments have no relevance. However I've ended up commenting anyway and no matter what you have said on all these threads, it comes down to the fact that you would argue till the cows came home with anything I have to say that involves America.

Deep down, you know damn well guns don't save lives but you don't like me sticking my nose in so your patriotism has made you persist with a futile argument. You also know that Trump is a ridiculous character that if you were totally honest, is doing more damage than good to the Republican Party and will set them back years, as Corbyn has done here with Labour.

[Pete2304 36]

And deep down, you also know that not all Muslims are bad.

[Pete2304 36]

And all the followers of the Catholic Church.....?

[Pete2304 36]

If there is (and I'm not getting into that) such a thing as an all seeing, all knowing God, do you honestly believe that God would turn round and condemn a Muslim because they picked the wrong God? Let's face it, Christianity hardly has an unblemished record when you go back through history. I would personally imagine that if such a thing as God exists, he would judge someone on how they had lived their life for good or worse before he judged them because they were born in Pakistan and not America. If you believe in the bible, you believe God created the world. Don't recall anywhere in the bible where it says and in the 8th day God created the A-Z and decreed anyone born in The Middle East shall be condemned to a life of eternal hell. America is ok though, he likes America.

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

Just heard that 25 Iraqi's were murdered by Isis, by tying their hands together and lowering them into a vat of nitric acid until they dissolved. Supposed to have happened 4 or 5 days ago now, but geez, doing barbaric things like this on fellow Muslims? Anyone else heard this? News reports on Isis are getting thin here, think it's an effort to stop recruitment, or to stop people thinking to much about it.