Peeing in Chinese culture

[Havelock 1,526]

The topic of peeing in Chinese culture started in another thread but deserves its own.

China has a unique and interesting culture around peeing and bathrooms that is often very different to the west. This thread is to discuss those dynamics including:
* The origins of this culture
* Chinese openness to public urination seeming from cultural traditions and societal conditions
* Urination in popular culture, myths and media
* Toilet and bathroom designs
* Forward streams in the population and their interpretation
* Cross cultural comparisons with the west and other Asian countries
* Observations, sightings, anecdotes and stories around peeing in the culture

I look forward to further discussion in a polite, open minded, and culturally sensitive manner.

[Havelock 1,526]

Other interesting and relevant threads

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Havelock
formatting

[gldenwetgoose 21,495]

Whilst staff do not discuss individuals, you should be aware that the discussions in the other thread have been under very close scrutiny and formal action has been taken as a consequence.

Every member of this site has signed up to agree to site rules, and it's always worth re-reading those rules from time to time - they are here.

In terms of whether a post discussing a culture is acceptable, first and foremost remember that we are here to forge understanding, positivity and encourage.  We will not tolerate any discrimination against groups, genders, cultures, races or on any other basis.  The 'Report' button is there for any member to formally raise any concerns they may have.

Now a few of my thoughts going forwards...

- Some views have been expressed under the blanket of culture - for example that certain groups / cultures / ages think certain things of women who...     Now, that could be true, but is it helpful?  Remember that site rules prohibit criticism, abuse and intolerance.   So labelling whole groups of ladies in a certain way runs the risk of breaking those rules.

- Some of these views in particular have very oppressive, sexist and abusive tones underlying them - especially when the topic is women peeing from a particular culture.  Why single out women or that culture?  Remember, even if you disagree with a view, if you post it you are giving it airtime and risk being judged as though you were advocating that way of thinking yourself.

- All posts must be in English (Site Rule 11) - this is for safety, in that everyone knows what they are reading and on that basis applies to external links too.  So please no links to foreign language pages which could contain anything for all we know.

- Site Rule 13 asks that content is not duplicated.  There has already been much discussed on this particular topic,  please ensure that whatever other discussions take place are fresh and new angles - if any exist.

 

Many of you will be rolling your eyes that Goose is off on one again.  In the past I have ranted a little about some of us guys obsessing and presuming to tell the ladies how their own bodies work, imagining that we know best.  Similar principles apply here - both in terms of telling the ladies the effects of squatting, sitting, whether to use a cubicle or a squat toilet.

Yes it's good to appreciate cultural values and history, but whatever is posted should be encouraging, supportive and beneficial to all.  If there is anything new to say on this particular topic.

[Havelock 1,526]

To be clear, starting a new thread was in no way an endorsement or support of language and characterization in the other thread. I’m personally very liberal and do not condone that. I also really like PeeFans because it has a higher quality culture and gender participation than any other pee site I have found and I thank the mods for that. 

I do find differences in peeing culture and norms fascinating and that’s the point of this topic. Most of the content on Peefans is very UK/US centric and there is whole world out there that has different norms and experiences. China is massive and their peeing practices are not well documented in the west. 

My entry into this fetish was actually motivated by growing up in two dramatically different cultures around peeing— one (EU) very open and accepting and another (US) very restrictive. I was fortunate to meet a partner who experienced the same cultural contrast in peeing in her upbringing between China and the west. That opened up my eyes that these contrasts are not just US or UK vs. EU but other places like the east.

It's also fascinating that China’s current culture and politics which have been arguably dominated by conservatism and strict communist control could produce such freedom in peeing. Its an interesting juxtaposition driven by a variety of factors such as economics, rates of modernization, rural vs. urban populations, urban planning, architecture, school systems, traditions and beliefs. I know little of Russian pee norms but perhaps there is a similar parallel there. 

If there was an anthropology program where I could study global cultures in urination, I would probably try to get a PhD!

Anyway, I hope we can have some good and interesting conversations that are non offensive and culturally enlightening for the community. I’ll post more when I have time. 

[PissDude 479]

9 hours ago, Havelock said:

To be clear, starting a new thread was in no way an endorsement or support of language and characterization in the other thread. I’m personally very liberal and do not condone that. I also really like PeeFans because it has a higher quality culture and gender participation than any other pee site I have found and I thank the mods for that. 

I do find differences in peeing culture and norms fascinating and that’s the point of this topic. Most of the content on Peefans is very UK/US centric and there is whole world out there that has different norms and experiences. China is massive and their peeing practices are not well documented in the west. 

My entry into this fetish was actually motivated by growing up in two dramatically different cultures around peeing— one (EU) very open and accepting and another (US) very restrictive. I was fortunate to meet a partner who experienced the same cultural contrast in peeing in her upbringing between China and the west. That opened up my eyes that these contrasts are not just US or UK vs. EU but other places like the east.

It's also fascinating that China’s current culture and politics which have been arguably dominated by conservatism and strict communist control could produce such freedom in peeing. Its an interesting juxtaposition driven by a variety of factors such as economics, rates of modernization, rural vs. urban populations, urban planning, architecture, school systems, traditions and beliefs. I know little of Russian pee norms but perhaps there is a similar parallel there. 

If there was an anthropology program where I could study global cultures in urination, I would probably try to get a PhD!

Anyway, I hope we can have some good and interesting conversations that are non offensive and culturally enlightening for the community. I’ll post more when I have time. 

I agree. It is one thing in Western nations where people have more bathrooms per capita than what we know of China. How do they handle it when multiple women live in the same dorm with one bathroom? Or multiple laborers work in the same building with far less bathrooms than Western building codes? It shouldn’t be a violation of TOS to discuss or theorize about. 

[Carb0nBased 647]

Yes, the first thing I thought when I saw the title of this thread was "that again?". Hopefully this thread won't go where the other one did. Where that one got potentially offensive was when people brought up insulting things that men from other cultures call women in response to how they use the bathroom. As long as we keep this on the topic of "what are bathroom facilities and peeing habits like in other cultures", without implying value judgments on the habits or the cultures then it should be OK. I welcome anyone who grew up or spent a considerable portion of life in non-US/UK cultures to tell about how bathrooms and peeing were/are different there from how they are in the US/UK, whether those experiences were fun/sexy or unpleasant.

What struck me from the other thread as most interesting was the suggested fact that in Asian cultures, despite maybe the common perception that they are more conservative and that women are expected to be more modest, that peeing habits may be more talked about and "culturally visible" there than in many cultures in the West. What I mean is that I have never (aside from on here of course!) heard anyone discuss other people's peeing stances in conversation as though it were a relevant topic. Even though everyone knows that most men stand and most women sit or hover, nobody discusses anyone else's stream or posture in casual conversation.

I say "suggested fact" as it seemed there was only one member who was claiming that things were this way, with nobody else saying they had been to Asia and could confirm.

[gldenwetgoose 21,495]

Thanks @Carb0nBased for constructive and positive suggestions.

I think you've hit the nail on the head - as soon as we start with generalisations then we're on a slippery slope.  What I mean by that is the sweeping statements that judge or label a whole culture or age group in the same way.  Look at how many different music styles we all like as an example - so how can anyone say that young Asian women prefer this or do that.

And tied in with that is the frustration that comes with people reciting stuff they've read, or seen somewhere on a website as fact - personally I've never been lucky enough to watch a lady using a squat urinal in real life, but I've seen lots of Asian porn - does that qualify me to know about cultural attitudes. I don't personally think it does.

So my suggestion is that this thread going forwards is used to focus on the real first hand experiences of those who have actually travelled, lived, worked or otherwise experienced the culture.  Maybe people who've been on business and observed particular customs around break times, people who have had direct conversations with those who grew up in the area.  People who have been out in the nightclub districts and can tell us whether they saw guys pissing in alleyways, or ladies squatting in doorways in a similar way to other international cities?

[My personal thoughts here - whether they're helpful or not is a different matter]

[Havelock 1,526]

I have been fortunate to both travel and have relationships with women from Asia (including China) who were open to discussing peeing or even participated in our fetish. My wife also has more extensive first hand experience in China (and other Asian countries). Without getting into my background I've had a fair bit of training in interviewing people on culture. @kitty and mimi and a couple of others brought up anthropological evidence from non-porn sites (such as the of cultural preference/admiration/idiom for forward streams). Finding and translating this material (I use Google translate in browser) is quite interesting. We are lucky that some of these cultural expressions still exist to be recorded in the age of the internet. I have had my wife reflect on the concepts. She has, for example, commented how it's funny that mom’s in the US think forward streams are a curse because girls may make a mess over the front of a western toilet, while its seen as blessing in China where it conveniently goes in front of their feet when squatting outside and no downside in a squat toilet. She thought this was common sense and I’m being a silly westerner for not seeing the practicality in context. I also asked her to ask her mother about some of the references Chinese myths/idioms and she confirmed those were in fact part of the culture in her days. 

In talking about this recently my wife reminded me that China was not impacted by the west until the late colonial period with the opium wars but the this impact was limited both geographically and culturally compared to other parts of the world.  Then in the 20th century while most of the world was strongly influenced by by western culture and media, this influence was largely absent until the 90s. Thus many habits and culture evolved less quickly. The more sophisticated and “proper” parts of society that might have embraced western manners were driven into exile by the cultural revolution. They were replaced by communist leadership that drove admiration for agrarian society and celebration of the common man. It's thus easy to see how old, agrarian habits, wives tales, superstition etc. would thrive. Then in the last 20 years, the culture has been more oriented to changing issues that drive business. She claimed that no one really thought poorly of pissing in the street until the communist party thought it might look bad during the olympics and thus started a bit of campaign around it and using diapers instead of split crotch. Now that the Olympics are over and the world seems to be getting more divided including the internet, there may not be as much pressure to clean up the streets. 

I would also love to hear more from @AbbyPeePrincess who has traveled in China recently.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Havelock
tag

[Havelock 1,526]

Another thing that I find interesting is the lack of a Chinese language pee fetish forum site. I'm not sure if there is less pee fetish in Chinese society because open peeing is not as risque there or because the internet is extensively monitored by the government and people fear disclosing a fetish? Maybe there is one but it's very hidden? Perhaps @eee555 who is in neighboring Taiwan and is studying pee fetishes can share some ideas about their existence in China.

 

 

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:19 PM, Havelock said:

I have been fortunate to both travel and have relationships with women from Asia (including China) who were open to discussing peeing or even participated in our fetish. My wife also has more extensive first hand experience in China (and other Asian countries). Without getting into my background I've had a fair bit of training in interviewing people on culture. @kitty and mimi and a couple of others brought up anthropological evidence from non-porn sites (such as the of cultural preference/admiration/idiom for forward streams). Finding and translating this material (I use Google translate in browser) is quite interesting. We are lucky that some of these cultural expressions still exist to be recorded in the age of the internet. I have had my wife reflect on the concepts. She has, for example, commented how it's funny that mom’s in the US think forward streams are a curse because girls may make a mess over the front of a western toilet, while its seen as blessing in China where it conveniently goes in front of their feet when squatting outside and no downside in a squat toilet. She thought this was common sense and I’m being a silly westerner for not seeing the practicality in context. I also asked her to ask her mother about some of the references Chinese myths/idioms and she confirmed those were in fact part of the culture in her days. 

In talking about this recently my wife reminded me that China was not impacted by the west until the late colonial period with the opium wars but the this impact was limited both geographically and culturally compared to other parts of the world.  Then in the 20th century while most of the world was strongly influenced by by western culture and media, this influence was largely absent until the 90s. Thus many habits and culture evolved less quickly. The more sophisticated and “proper” parts of society that might have embraced western manners were driven into exile by the cultural revolution. They were replaced by communist leadership that drove admiration for agrarian society and celebration of the common man. It's thus easy to see how old, agrarian habits, wives tales, superstition etc. would thrive. Then in the last 20 years, the culture has been more oriented to changing issues that drive business. She claimed that no one really thought poorly of pissing in the street until the communist party thought it might look bad during the olympics and thus started a bit of campaign around it and using diapers instead of split crotch. Now that the Olympics are over and the world seems to be getting more divided including the internet, there may not be as much pressure to clean up the streets. 

I would also love to hear more from @AbbyPeePrincess who has traveled in China recently.

On 2/6/2023 at 11:28 PM, Havelock said:

Another thing that I find interesting is the lack of a Chinese language pee fetish forum site. I'm not sure if there is less pee fetish in Chinese society because open peeing is not as risque there or because the internet is extensively monitored by the government and people fear disclosing a fetish? Maybe there is one but it's very hidden? Perhaps @eee555 who is in neighboring Taiwan and is studying pee fetishes can share some ideas about their existence in China.

 

 

 

I was born in mainland China and lived there during early childhood and first three school years until I was in third grade (I migrated to Hong Kong with my mother when I was in third grade, and came to united states after finish middle school) was I was living in China, there was no toilet inside the house. people peed in kitchen drain. family members saw each other peeing.my mother have five sisters. I saw all my aunts squatting to pee, except my fifth aunt, because my fifth aunt came to the united states very early. I never saw my fifth aunt pee,although i saw her daughter, (which is one of my cousin)pee. I only heard my fifth aunt's pee story which was about her peeing experience when she traveled to Jiuzhai valley in China. My fifth aunt live in United States most of time, and use western toilet most of time. I think she was not used to pee with other women outdoor in china, when there was no bathroom at all.

In china, female urination in public while exposed to strangers is a very recent trend. that was almost non exist until the communist party taken over. in ancient China, women were expected to stay home doing house work and be more modest. usually, only men went to work. peeing in public were more acceptable for men than women. the communist party had fought for gender equality and tried to empower women. female urination in public is consider to be a sign that women's social status became closer to men. I heard that it was even more common for women to pee in public in front of strangers during the time when chairman mao zedong ruled the country,but in present time, there is conflict between traditional Chinese value and communist value. there are still controversies about gender inequality. some of the ultra conservative Chinese men want female public urination to be ban. they want prescribe harsh punishment for female peeing in public. they even think that not even little girls should be allowed to pee outdoor in public, not to mention adult women.but they never even complain about adult men who pee in public. other less conservative, more liberal Chinese men will feel more acceptable for little girls to pee in public, but less acceptable for adult women to do the same. in some places and time periods, public bathrooms are almost exclusively exclusively for women, when male urination in public is considered to be more acceptable. although female pee in public in front of strangers is very recent trend, and very uncommon through Chinese history, female communal urination is nothing new in china, and this even commonly exist around the world through history. in most of the ancient histories, most societies were very patriarchal, women were supposed to wear modestly. during the time when the development of bathroom facilities were in its primal stage, that was not easy for people to find bathroom outside. that was more acceptable for men to pee outside and be seen by strangers, while women were supposed to hide themselves from strangers. at that time, when women needed urinate, they would find some same sex friends, to find some places that they will not be seen by strangers, they went to pee in group, therefore they could guard each other. this kind of practice still exist in part of the world such as India were bathroom facility still in its way to develop. In modern China, and other more developed countries alike, when bathroom facility is more developed than when it was in ancient time, and status of women became more equal to men, female communal urination no longer serve the same purpose as it was in the past.although this may still be a evolutionary  instinct for women to go to bathroom together which have been evolving and developing for long time, but this behavior is given new meaning. it is less about protecting each other, but it is more about building friendship. for example, some women in modern time go to bathroom together when the bathroom stalls have only partitions,with no door, they stand and guard each other just like the women in ancient time did. but the purpose of this is different from ancient time. they do this not because they are fear of being watched by other women. modern bathroom is much safer than it was in ancient time, but women still guard each other as a sign of care and support each other. even today, in highly developed western countries, inside highly private ladies room,women still go to bathroom together to show the sign of supporting each other. on the other hand, peeing in public while exposed to people of oppose sex is more common among men than women.men are more programmed to pee outside in public in mix gender environment. men in general don't go to bathroom with same sex friend, and will keep some distance from strangers while peeing on urinal, because men are not programmed to pee in gender segregation environment as women did.

in ancient time, when men and women did not have equal status, friendship between female was consider to be important, because they can support each other. there is an ancient Chinese term call "guimi". it can translate as "girlfriends",but it almost always describe relationship between females(usually, unmarried female). this term usually mean close friendship between unmarried young women, but at the same time, it can also mean lesbian partners. in ancient China, female homosexuality before marriage was not frown upon, and was even encouraged, because young women were not supposed to interact with men who were unrelated to them, in such culture that chastity was highly value. at the time when bathroom facility was in its primal stage of its development, women were encourage to make friend with each other, in order to guard each other when they pee outside. women showing their bodies to each other while peeing to express friendship. At that stage, their family members would not even care if they have close friendship or lesbian relationship, as long as they were still unmarried, everything was fine. this may explain why some research show that women are less likely worry about being watched by members of same sex inside public bathroom, because women are historically evolved to tolerate homosexuality.

in ancient China,women who went to bathroom together and guard each other while peeing were usually young, and unmarried, because women without husband at that time was considered to be vulnerable group, and they needed to find support network. that was less common for married women to go to bathroom together in ancient time, because married women were supposed to receive support and protection from their husband, rather than same sex friends. friendship between females was considered to be alternative of Heterosexual relationship for unmarried women. at that time, the concept of heterosexual dating was almost non-exist. marriage were almost always arranged by their parents.therefore,people did not strictly distinguish female friendship and lesbian relationship.

but in modern time, the thing is different, because modern culture and bathroom facility is very different from ancient time. there is a new concept of gender segregation public bathroom, which did not exist in ancient time. unlike ancient time, most women who went to bathroom together in order to guard each other were young and unmarried. in modern time,inside a gender segregation bathroom environment, when their boyfriend or husband cannot be present,even straight women who are married or in relationship, would  temperorily re enact their ancient instinct. they go to bathroom together to show each other support and protection, just like the single unmarried women did in ancient time.

I once watch a TV show in Hong Kong. It is called"Big Boys Brothers Club". This is a TV show about subcultures in Hong Kong. In each episode, they invite different guess speaker to the show. In one episode, they invite a famous lesbian to the show. when the guess speaker was ask where does she and other lesbian she know usually going to find mates, she said that ladies room is the place for them to find partners.

I once read a articles in a Chinese website. it said that there was a famous public bathroom at the mid of last century in China, was a famous dating spot for homosexual people(both gay and lesbian) to find partners or date each other.

in those hot spots that homosexual people active, women generally feel more okay to go to such kind of bathroom, and will less likely worry about being chased or harassed by the members of same sex. on the other hand, men are more likely to fear of being watched by other men. modern bathroom facility make women feel safer to pee than it was in ancient time, but at the same time, it make some men feel less safe. this may be the reason why more men than women choose to pee outdoor in public.

as for pee fetish site in China, I have not even heard such concept in Chinese circle. If you mean porn site that mainly focus on pee porn, I am almost 99 percent sure that there is no such website in China, because pornography is illegal in China. most porn sites will be taken down not very long after they were created. the law is very strict. some porn discussion forum are in Chinese language, but they were created by Chinese people who live in The US, or around the world outside of mainland China. They don't talk much about peeing. I don't pay too much attention on those forums because I am not interested in porn in general, and I am more cultural oriented when it came the the topic of peeing.

although pee fetish forum is highly unlikely to exist inside mainland China, people with pee fetish do exist, and they do express their voice on internet. their discussion are usually on mainstream forums. I compared them with pee fetish site in English speaking countries and found that they are very different. contents in pee fetish forum in west are usually more individual and biological oriented, while the peeing contents in Chinese forum are more social and cultural oriented. they real focus on entirely two subjects. one is stem, another is liberal art subject. people in English pee forums are usually interested peeing as a biological function which release the body. bathroom in western countries generally have more privacy. peeing is considered to be private and individual thing. peeing contents is more about body function of individual, and less about how people interact with each other. this make the subject of pee fetish like hard science. on the other hand,people in Chinese forums are more focus on social and cultural perspective of public bathroom which consider bathroom behavior to be a part of social life and it is interconnect with complicate relationship between friends,couple,family members in human society. this make the pee fetish subject more like social science. personally, I am not interested in peeing as a biological function by itself, but I feel is is very interesting that some Chinese people use evolutionary anthropology to understand bathroom behavior. by studying bathroom behavior as a anthropology subject, we might understand more complicated relationship in human society.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by kitty and mimi

[Havelock 1,526]

On 4/1/2023 at 9:57 PM, kitty and mimi said:

I was born in mainland China and lived there during early childhood and first three school years until I was in third grade (I migrated to Hong Kong with my mother when I was in third grade, and came to united states after finish middle school) was I was living in China, there was no toilet inside the house. people peed in kitchen drain. family members saw each other peeing.my mother have five sisters. I saw all my aunts squatting to pee, except my fifth aunt, because my fifth aunt came to the united states very early. I never saw my fifth aunt pee,although i saw her daughter, (which is one of my cousin)pee. I only heard my fifth aunt's pee story which was about her peeing experience when she traveled to Jiuzhai valley in China. My fifth aunt live in United States most of time, and use western toilet most of time. I think she was not used to pee with other women outdoor in china, when there was no bathroom at all.

In china, female urination in public while exposed to strangers is a very recent trend. that was almost non exist until the communist party taken over. in ancient China, women were expected to stay home doing house work and be more modest. usually, only men went to work. peeing in public were more acceptable for men than women. the communist party had fought for gender equality and tried to empower women. female urination in public is consider to be a sign that women's social status became closer to men. I heard that it was even more common for women to pee in public in front of strangers during the time when chairman mao zedong ruled the country,but in present time, there is conflict between traditional Chinese value and communist value. there are still controversies about gender inequality. some of the ultra conservative Chinese men want female public urination to be ban. they want prescribe harsh punishment for female peeing in public. they even think that not even little girls should be allowed to pee outdoor in public, not to mention adult women.but they never even complain about adult men who pee in public. other less conservative, more liberal Chinese men will feel more acceptable for little girls to pee in public, but less acceptable for adult women to do the same. in some places and time periods, public bathrooms are almost exclusively exclusively for women, when male urination in public is considered to be more acceptable. although female pee in public in front of strangers is very recent trend, and very uncommon through Chinese history, female communal urination is nothing new in china, and this even commonly exist around the world through history. in most of the ancient histories, most societies were very patriarchal, women were supposed to wear modestly. during the time when the development of bathroom facilities were in its primal stage, that was not easy for people to find bathroom outside. that was more acceptable for men to pee outside and be seen by strangers, while women were supposed to hide themselves from strangers. at that time, when women needed urinate, they would find some same sex friends, to find some places that they will not be seen by strangers, they went to pee in group, therefore they could guard each other. this kind of practice still exist in part of the world such as India were bathroom facility still in its way to develop. In modern China, and other more developed countries alike, when bathroom facility is more developed than when it was in ancient time, and status of women became more equal to men, female communal urination no longer serve the same purpose as it was in the past.although this may still be a evolutionary  instinct for women to go to bathroom together which have been evolving and developing for long time, but this behavior is given new meaning. it is less about protecting each other, but it is more about building friendship. for example, some women in modern time go to bathroom together when the bathroom stalls have only partitions,with no door, they stand and guard each other just like the women in ancient time did. but the purpose of this is different from ancient time. they do this not because they are fear of being watched by other women. modern bathroom is much safer than it was in ancient time, but women still guard each other as a sign of care and support each other. even today, in highly developed western countries, inside highly private ladies room,women still go to bathroom together to show the sign of supporting each other. on the other hand, peeing in public while exposed to people of oppose sex is more common among men than women.men are more programmed to pee outside in public in mix gender environment. men in general don't go to bathroom with same sex friend, and will keep some distance from strangers while peeing on urinal, because men are not programmed to pee in gender segregation environment as women did.

in ancient time, when men and women did not have equal status, friendship between female was consider to be important, because they can support each other. there is an ancient Chinese term call "guimi". it can translate as "girlfriends",but it almost always describe relationship between females(usually, unmarried female). this term usually mean close friendship between unmarried young women, but at the same time, it can also mean lesbian partners. in ancient China, female homosexuality before marriage was not frown upon, and was even encouraged, because young women were not supposed to interact with men who were unrelated to them, in such culture that chastity was highly value. at the time when bathroom facility was in its primal stage of its development, women were encourage to make friend with each other, in order to guard each other when they pee outside. women showing their bodies to each other while peeing to express friendship. At that stage, their family members would not even care if they have close friendship or lesbian relationship, as long as they were still unmarried, everything was fine. this may explain why some research show that women are less likely worry about being watched by members of same sex inside public bathroom, because women are historically evolved to tolerate homosexuality.

in ancient China,women who went to bathroom together and guard each other while peeing were usually young, and unmarried, because women without husband at that time was considered to be vulnerable group, and they needed to find support network. that was less common for married women to go to bathroom together in ancient time, because married women were supposed to receive support and protection from their husband, rather than same sex friends. friendship between females was considered to be alternative of Heterosexual relationship for unmarried women. at that time, the concept of heterosexual dating was almost non-exist. marriage were almost always arranged by their parents.therefore,people did not strictly distinguish female friendship and lesbian relationship.

but in modern time, the thing is different, because modern culture and bathroom facility is very different from ancient time. there is a new concept of gender segregation public bathroom, which did not exist in ancient time. unlike ancient time, most women who went to bathroom together in order to guard each other were young and unmarried. in modern time,inside a gender segregation bathroom environment, when their boyfriend or husband cannot be present,even straight women who are married or in relationship, would  temperorily re enact their ancient instinct. they go to bathroom together to show each other support and protection, just like the single unmarried women did in ancient time.

I once watch a TV show in Hong Kong. It is called"Big Boys Brothers Club". This is a TV show about subcultures in Hong Kong. In each episode, they invite different guess speaker to the show. In one episode, they invite a famous lesbian to the show. when the guess speaker was ask where does she and other lesbian she know usually going to find mates, she said that ladies room is the place for them to find partners.

I once read a articles in a Chinese website. it said that there was a famous public bathroom at the mid of last century in China, was a famous dating spot for homosexual people(both gay and lesbian) to find partners or date each other.

in those hot spots that homosexual people active, women generally feel more okay to go to such kind of bathroom, and will less likely worry about being chased or harassed by the members of same sex. on the other hand, men are more likely to fear of being watched by other men. modern bathroom facility make women feel safer to pee than it was in ancient time, but at the same time, it make some men feel less safe. this may be the reason why more men than women choose to pee outdoor in public.

as for pee fetish site in China, I have not even heard such concept in Chinese circle. If you mean porn site that mainly focus on pee porn, I am almost 99 percent sure that there is no such website in China, because pornography is illegal in China. most porn sites will be taken down not very long after they were created. the law is very strict. some porn discussion forum are in Chinese language, but they were created by Chinese people who live in The US, or around the world outside of mainland China. They don't talk much about peeing. I don't pay too much attention on those forums because I am not interested in porn in general, and I am more cultural oriented when it came the the topic of peeing.

although pee fetish forum is highly unlikely to exist inside mainland China, people with pee fetish do exist, and they do express their voice on internet. their discussion are usually on mainstream forums. I compared them with pee fetish site in English speaking countries and found that they are very different. contents in pee fetish forum in west are usually more individual and biological oriented, while the peeing contents in Chinese forum are more social and cultural oriented. they real focus on entirely two subjects. one is stem, another is liberal art subject. people in English pee forums are usually interested peeing as a biological function which release the body. bathroom in western countries generally have more privacy. peeing is considered to be private and individual thing. peeing contents is more about body function of individual, and less about how people interact with each other. this make the subject of pee fetish like hard science. on the other hand,people in Chinese forums are more focus on social and cultural perspective of public bathroom which consider bathroom behavior to be a part of social life and it is interconnect with complicate relationship between friends,couple,family members in human society. this make the pee fetish subject more like social science. personally, I am not interested in peeing as a biological function by itself, but I feel is is very interesting that some Chinese people use evolutionary anthropology to understand bathroom behavior. by studying bathroom behavior as a anthropology subject, we might understand more complicated relationship in human society.

 

 

@kitty and mimi thank you for the contribution. I agree the social science and anthropological approach to pee fetish. It’s so much more interesting looking at it that way. 

Do you have any memories of peeing when you lived in china? Do you remember peeing outside? Do you have any specific memories of others peeing in public?

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 4/3/2023 at 11:10 PM, Havelock said:

thank you for the contribution. I agree the social science and anthropological approach to pee fetish. It’s so much more interesting looking at it that way.

yes, it is more interesting to study peeing and bathroom behavior in social and cultural point of view, but there are only few of us in this forum are interested in this topic. it seem that there are more people who interested in this topic in china. most people in this forum are more interested in biological perspective of urination. by studying this topic from cultural point of view, we may understand lot of human behavior people done inside bathroom  unconsciously. 

one thing I found very interesting is that more women than men go to bathroom together with same sex friends, is considered to be a defense mechanism that have been developed through history which can use anthropology to explain. according to those studies,women in general are more likely to feel safer while going to bathroom with same sex friends, and fear of loneliness while peeing alone in public bathroom. on the other hand, men would feel less safe to pee with other men in gender segregation environment,fear of being watched by other men, and more likely to choose to pee alone, or peeing outdoor in public in mixed gender environment. this kind of defense mechanism came from ancient history when bathroom facility was less developed, young and unmarried women guarded each other while peeing outside. in modern time, this kind of defense mechanism is retain in a new context. this kind of defense mechanism is carried over to indoor ladies room. although there is no real danger inside ladies room in modern context, a lot of women still feel loneliness inside bathroom and fear of  peeing alone. the fear of isolation and loneliness while peeing alone in ladies room is due to the defense mechanism which may be the reason more women than men go to bathroom together with same sex friends. men and women have a entirely different defense mechanism through the evolutionary history when it came to bathroom behavior. this may be the reason why shy bladder syndrome is more common among men than women according to some study.

although female communal urination was a defense mechanism that developed through history, something is changed and apply to new context in modern bathroom environment. in ancient time, women who went to bathroom together were usually young and unmarried. because young and unmarried women were considered to be vulnerable group in ancient time, therefore, they created network to support and protect each other to find safety. they went to bathroom together to guard each other. but in modern time, the bathroom facility is in gender segregation environment, therefore,even married women or women in relationship will still re enact the defend mechanism to go to bathroom together when their husband or boyfriend cannot present.

just like women in ancient time, many modern women still go to bathroom together to find safety and protection, but the term "safety" is given a new meaning. single women in ancient time went to bathroom together and guard each other in order to protect themselves from male strangers.(they would be protected by their husband after marriage) but in modern time, married women or women in relationship find safety inside ladies room because they can complain about their boyfriend or husband and say thing behind the men's back with out fear of being heard by men in a gender segregation environment when their boyfriend or husband cannot be present. because the bathroom facility changed, their husbands were from being "protectors" became "the people that women protect themselves from". single women were considered to be vulnerable group in ancient time, but now, married women or women in relationship  is the group that protect themselves from their husband or boyfriend inside ladies room.

in china,people who choose to pee outside in public in mixed gender environment are likely to be single. married people or people in relationship  generally will not pee with people of opposite sex who are unrelated to each other in mixed gender environment in public.

in some places, gender segregation bathroom in public is mostly for couples.this can be a place for men and women who have relationship issues to separate from each other to calm themselves. for married women or women in relationship,taking a pee break in public bathroom is not just physically release, but it is also mentally relax when they separate from their husband or boyfriend. women can squat side by side and talk about their relationship issues while peeing.

when there are large gathering, partying or traveling outside in countryside, were mostly couples or families go, were there is no public toilet, while peeing,men and women will almost always separated from each other, people of same sex will pee side by side together in group. just like the story of my fifth aunt, when she traveled to jiuzhai valley, there were no bathroom in rural area. during the pee break, the guide asked the men go left side of the bus, and women go to the right side. women squatted side by side and peed next to each other. this kind of communal urination in gender segregation environment could re enact female defense mechanism which evolve from ancient time, which bring new social experience that different from mixed gender environment. women become closer to each other when they separated from their boyfriend or husband. in a place that only members of same sex are present, they can temporarily escape from relationship or family issues, create a new social environment, and calm themselves while relieving themselves.

there were many Chinese webpages I have read suggest that communal urination in gender segregation environment is socially significant for many Chinese women. Chinese ladies room is considered to be the community center of Chinese women. Some lesbians were searching partners inside ladies room, while women in heterosexual relationship can create alternative supporting network. this kind of gender segregation environment allow both straight women and lesbian come together to form a new group identity and relationship which they can experience equality and freedom that they hardly experience in mixed gender environment.

Edited April 17, 2023 by kitty and mimi

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 4/3/2023 at 11:10 PM, Havelock said:

Do you have any specific memories of others peeing in public?

according to my experience, public urination is more common in mainland china, and less common in Hong Kong "I am not sure about Taiwan, because I have never been there) , more common among younger population, and less common among older population, more common among male population, less common among female population. in Hong Kong, public urination is illegal, but there is a lot of parents still let their children to do this. their parents need to pay the fine if they were seen by the police. for adults, public urination would be even more serious, because they can be prosecuted for indecent exposure which can send them to jail if convicted. but for children, it is less serious. male population are more likely break this rule than female population. I even saw middle age men pee in public in Hong Kong. For example, I saw a man stand inside a  alley and peeing at night. also, another man I saw, was peeing in park, in rainy day, were not too many people in park, and the ground was already wet. but I have never even once see any adult women pee outdoor in public in Kong Kong. It is common for little girls to squat to pee in playground In Hong Kong, but almost, all of their parents were came from mainland China. Almost all those girls were in kindergarten. they will stop doing this after they get into elementary school. in mainland China female public urination is more common than in Hong Kong, but even in mainland China, the oldest female I ever seen peeing outdoor in public was a girl around high school age, probably, not older than 16 years old. I saw her squat to pee in amusement park.

I remember once when my mother, my cousin, and me went to eat in a Chinese restaurant in China, my cousin wanted to go to pee, but the restaurant only had western toilet. she did not want to use western toilet, because she considered western toilet to be dirty. (she is my oldest cousin. she lived in China most of time. she came to united states very late) my mother told her that she can hover.my mother used the Chinese term "wu ying deng" for hovering. the term literally translate as "no shadow chair" or "invisible chair". it mean peeing in semi squat position as if sitting on a invisible chair. this term is very popular in internet circle in Hong Kong, but I have never seen any Chinese female use this urination position in person. in china, all western toilets are closed door, unlike the open squat toilet. I have never seen my oldest cousin peeing on western toilet personally, but I saw her squat to pee when we lived together in china. I never seen any of my aunts sit down or hover on public toilet either, at least not in my memories. but in my memories, my mother almost always sit down to urinate on public toilet in Hong Kong when she was younger. I am not sure what posture she use now as she get older. I saw two of my cousins sat down on toilet seat while urinating. one of them was born in united states. another was born in China, but she came to united states when she was very young. she got used to urinate on both sitting and squat, both open and close door toilet. when she first came to The United States, she still keep doing outdoor public urination, although it is highly frowned upon in the United States.

other than those, I have never seen any Chinese female sit or hover to pee in western toilet in public bathroom in person. most other information I have about Chinese women urinate on western toilet are came from internet, but I seen more people squat when I was in my country.

according to some research, hovering is very common among women in Chinese peaking circle. in Hong Kong and Taiwan(and some European countries), where western toilet is more common than it is in mainland China, some ladies room have  sign notice inside ladies room to suggest the women to sit rather than hover. others instruct women hover in correct way.

 

When I was in eighth grade in Hong Kong, during class time in school, a girl was desperate, have full bladder during the class. she asked the teacher permission to go to bathroom. although the teacher allowed her to go, she said that she needed to go to pee  with her friend. the teacher told her that she was not allow to pee together with her friend, because only two people of opposite sex(one boy and one girl in separate bathroom) at a time is allow during class. she said that she need to go with her same sex friend because she feel anxiety in quiet bathroom when there was no other girls inside during class time, her peeing was hard to come out without her friend pee with her.

although some research show that shy bladder syndrome is more common among men than women, but female population with shy bladder syndrome may be under estimate. men with shy bladder syndrome would fear other men watched them them pee, so they choose to pee in a empty and quiet men's room. this kind of problem is uncommon among women. on the contrary, there are more women with shy bladder syndrome fear peeing alone in quiet ladies bathroom, which they feel being isolated or loneliness. she may fear other people became easier to heard her pee while alone. she may choose a noisy and crowded bathroom or go to bathroom with friends to cover the pee sound.

when I was sixth grade in school in Hong Kong, during a field trip to a camp site, the teacher suggested that the girls  should go to bathroom with same sex friends in order to protect each other, and should not go to bathroom without friends to accompany with.

going to bathroom during class time in school is more advantageous for boys, and disadvantageous for girls, because many teachers only allow two students of opposite sex at a time go to bathroom in gender segregation environment, because the teachers do not want their students to use the class times to talk and socializing inside the bathroom. the teacher given the permission for their students to relives their body while control the social perspective inside bathroom. this further suggest that there is really social perspective of peeing public bathroom, not just bodily relieves. the teachers did not allow more than one students of same sex go to bathroom together during class time. they only allow two students of opposite sex at a time, so they cannot talk to each other while peeing in a gender segregation environment.boys generally are more used to pee alone. girls are more used pee with same sex friends, and feel more anxiety to go to bathroom during class time when everyone were in class, and there was no other girls inside a quiet, empty bathroom.

but according to my memories in mainland China, the female teachers usually choose to pee during the class time rather than break time. at that time, the bathroom for students was not separate from teacher's bathroom. the female teachers use the same girl's room that the girls use(unlike Hong Kong, which student's bathroom is separate from teacher's bathroom) bathroom in school at that time have only squat open toilets. the stalls have only partitions with no door. everyone see each other squat to pee.the female teachers may try to avoid the break time to be in a same bathroom with their students, so they choose to pee alone during class time. going to girl's bathroom during class session mean differently than when it is in break time. during the class session, urination is almost purely biological and hardly social, because it is unlike for people to see each other pee at that time. the bathroom was empty and quiet. but during the break time, the girl's bathroom became noisy and crowded. it became place for socialization. therefore, the girls generally prefer going to bathroom at break time when it was noisy and crowded, the teachers on the other hand, go to bathroom when it became empty and quiet, no girls inside, it became a women's room.

in high school in mainland china, during break time, there is almost always a long line in front of girl's bathroom while the boy's bathroom is empty and quiet most of time. the break time is very short, probably around 15 to 20 minutes. many girls did not even have chance to relieve themselves before the class begin.

this is because there is different design in boys and girls bathroom. in boys room, the space for urination is separate from the space of defecation, but in girls bathroom, the space for urination and defecation is same. also, girls are more likely go to bathroom during break time, while boy may prefer go to bathroom during class. some girls may not feel really urgent to pee, but they just want to go with their friends, they just try to save more time to talk to each other, there for, more people go to girls room than boys room.

in order to solve this kind of issue, some high school design a new structure of girls bathroom. the of "urination only section" just like the boys room have. the "urination only section " have many squat urinals. defecation is not allow on squat urinal. the girls who defecate on squat urinal may be punish. the squat urinals have no door, no stall, no partition, so they can save more space for the girls to socialize with each other, and the girls can squat side by side, talk to each other in close distance without boundary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by kitty and mimi

[Carb0nBased 647]

On 4/1/2023 at 9:57 PM, kitty and mimi said:

I was born in mainland China and lived there during early childhood and first three school years until I was in third grade (I migrated to Hong Kong with my mother when I was in third grade, and came to united states after finish middle school) was I was living in China, there was no toilet inside the house. people peed in kitchen drain. family members saw each other peeing.my mother have five sisters. I saw all my aunts squatting to pee, except my fifth aunt, because my fifth aunt came to the united states very early. I never saw my fifth aunt pee,although i saw her daughter, (which is one of my cousin)pee. I only heard my fifth aunt's pee story which was about her peeing experience when she traveled to Jiuzhai valley in China. My fifth aunt live in United States most of time, and use western toilet most of time. I think she was not used to pee with other women outdoor in china, when there was no bathroom at all.

In china, female urination in public while exposed to strangers is a very recent trend. that was almost non exist until the communist party taken over. in ancient China, women were expected to stay home doing house work and be more modest. usually, only men went to work. peeing in public were more acceptable for men than women. the communist party had fought for gender equality and tried to empower women. female urination in public is consider to be a sign that women's social status became closer to men. I heard that it was even more common for women to pee in public in front of strangers during the time when chairman mao zedong ruled the country,but in present time, there is conflict between traditional Chinese value and communist value.

I once watch a TV show in Hong Kong. It is called"Big Boys Brothers Club". This is a TV show about subcultures in Hong Kong. In each episode, they invite different guess speaker to the show. In one episode, they invite a famous lesbian to the show. when the guess speaker was ask where does she and other lesbian she know usually going to find mates, she said that ladies room is the place for them to find partners.

I once read a articles in a Chinese website. it said that there was a famous public bathroom at the mid of last century in China, was a famous dating spot for homosexual people(both gay and lesbian) to find partners or date each other.

I find it interesting that you got to see so many female relatives pee. While a few people here have told of such families in the west, it certainly seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Except for young children with their siblings, and maybe parents--more often same sex--in front of children of a similarly early age, peeing seems to be usually private even within families, as it certainly was in mine.

It's also interesting how female public peeing seems to reflect an increase in women's social status--though that's not so surprising and also not unique to Asia as far as I know. Throughout history, it has been more common for men to be out in public among each other in situations where they get "rowdy"/let loose. Even attending establishments where alcoholic beverages are served is a relatively new thing for women, on a historical timescale, in the west. 

It's kind of ironic that in cultures that are historically (and to some degree presently) conservative on the subject of homosexuality, it's almost more acceptable to go seeking partners in restrooms. In most of the western world now, homosexuality is quite normalized, but hitting on people in public bathrooms is seen as pervy and very much frowned upon, except in designated gay venues.

[Carb0nBased 647]

On 4/17/2023 at 1:00 PM, kitty and mimi said:

according to my experience, public urination is more common in mainland china, and less common in Hong Kong "I am not sure about Taiwan, because I have never been there) , more common among younger population, and less common among older population, more common among male population, less common among female population. in Hong Kong, public urination is illegal, but there is a lot of parents still let their children to do this. their parents need to pay the fine if they were seen by the police. for adults, public urination would be even more serious, because they can be prosecuted for indecent exposure which can send them to jail if convicted. but for children, it is less serious. male population are more likely break this rule than female population. I even saw middle age men pee in public in Hong Kong. For example, I saw a man stand inside a  alley and peeing at night. also, another man I saw, was peeing in park, in rainy day, were not too many people in park, and the ground was already wet. but I have never even once see any adult women pee outdoor in public in Kong Kong. It is common for little girls to squat to pee in playground In Hong Kong, but almost, all of their parents were came from mainland China. Almost all those girls were in kindergarten. they will stop doing this after they get into elementary school. in mainland China female public urination is more common than in Hong Kong, but even in mainland China, the oldest female I ever seen peeing outdoor in public was a girl around high school age, probably, not older than 16 years old. I saw her squat to pee in amusement park.

I remember once when my mother, my cousin, and me went to eat in a Chinese restaurant in China, my cousin wanted to go to pee, but the restaurant only had western toilet. she did not want to use western toilet, because she considered western toilet to be dirty. (she is my oldest cousin. she lived in China most of time. she came to united states very late) my mother told her that she can hover.my mother used the Chinese term "wu ying deng" for hovering. the term literally translate as "no shadow chair" or "invisible chair". it mean peeing in semi squat position as if sitting on a invisible chair. this term is very popular in internet circle in Hong Kong, but I have never seen any Chinese female use this urination position in person. in china, all western toilets are closed door, unlike the open squat toilet. I have never seen my oldest cousin peeing on western toilet personally, but I saw her squat to pee when we lived together in china. I never seen any of my aunts sit down or hover on public toilet either, at least not in my memories. but in my memories, my mother almost always sit down to urinate on public toilet in Hong Kong when she was younger. I am not sure what posture she use now as she get older. I saw two of my cousins sat down on toilet seat while urinating. one of them was born in united states. another was born in China, but she came to united states when she was very young. she got used to urinate on both sitting and squat, both open and close door toilet. when she first came to The United States, she still keep doing outdoor public urination, although it is highly frowned upon in the United States.

other than those, I have never seen any Chinese female sit or hover to pee in western toilet in public bathroom in person. most other information I have about Chinese women urinate on western toilet are came from internet, but I seen more people squat when I was in my country.

according to some research, hovering is very common among women in Chinese peaking circle. in Hong Kong and Taiwan(and some European countries), where western toilet is more common than it is in mainland China, some ladies room have  sign notice inside ladies room to suggest the women to sit rather than hover. others instruct women hover in correct way.

 

When I was in eighth grade in Hong Kong, during class time in school, a girl was desperate, have full bladder during the class. she asked the teacher permission to go to bathroom. although the teacher allowed her to go, she said that she needed to go to pee  with her friend. the teacher told her that she was not allow to pee together with her friend, because only two people of opposite sex(one boy and one girl in separate bathroom) at a time is allow during class. she said that she need to go with her same sex friend because she feel anxiety in quiet bathroom when there was no other girls inside during class time, her peeing was hard to come out without her friend pee with her.

although some research show that shy bladder syndrome is more common among men than women, but female population with shy bladder syndrome may be under estimate. men with shy bladder syndrome would fear other men watched them them pee, so they choose to pee in a empty and quiet men's room. this kind of problem is uncommon among women. on the contrary, there are more women with shy bladder syndrome fear peeing alone in quiet ladies bathroom, which they feel being isolated or loneliness. she may fear other people became easier to heard her pee while alone. she may choose a noisy and crowded bathroom or go to bathroom with friends to cover the pee sound.

when I was sixth grade in school in Hong Kong, during a field trip to a camp site, the teacher suggested that the girls  should go to bathroom with same sex friends in order to protect each other, and should not go to bathroom without friends to accompany with.

going to bathroom during class time in school is more advantageous for boys, and disadvantageous for girls, because many teachers only allow two students of opposite sex at a time go to bathroom in gender segregation environment, because the teachers do not want their students to use the class times to talk and socializing inside the bathroom. the teacher given the permission for their students to relives their body while control the social perspective inside bathroom. this further suggest that there is really social perspective of peeing public bathroom, not just bodily relieves. the teachers did not allow more than one students of same sex go to bathroom together during class time. they only allow two students of opposite sex at a time, so they cannot talk to each other while peeing in a gender segregation environment.boys generally are more used to pee alone. girls are more used pee with same sex friends, and feel more anxiety to go to bathroom during class time when everyone were in class, and there was no other girls inside a quiet, empty bathroom.

but according to my memories in mainland China, the female teachers usually choose to pee during the class time rather than break time. at that time, the bathroom for students was not separate from teacher's bathroom. the female teachers use the same girl's room that the girls use(unlike Hong Kong, which student's bathroom is separate from teacher's bathroom) bathroom in school at that time have only squat open toilets. the stalls have only partitions with no door. everyone see each other squat to pee.the female teachers may try to avoid the break time to be in a same bathroom with their students, so they choose to pee alone during class time. going to girl's bathroom during class session mean differently than when it is in break time. during the class session, urination is almost purely biological and hardly social, because it is unlike for people to see each other pee at that time. the bathroom was empty and quiet. but during the break time, the girl's bathroom became noisy and crowded. it became place for socialization. therefore, the girls generally prefer going to bathroom at break time when it was noisy and crowded, the teachers on the other hand, go to bathroom when it became empty and quiet, no girls inside, it became a women's room.

in high school in mainland china, during break time, there is almost always a long line in front of girl's bathroom while the boy's bathroom is empty and quiet most of time. the break time is very short, probably around 15 to 20 minutes. many girls did not even have chance to relieve themselves before the class begin.

this is because there is different design in boys and girls bathroom. in boys room, the space for urination is separate from the space of defecation, but in girls bathroom, the space for urination and defecation is same. also, girls are more likely go to bathroom during break time, while boy may prefer go to bathroom during class. some girls may not feel really urgent to pee, but they just want to go with their friends, they just try to save more time to talk to each other, there for, more people go to girls room than boys room.

in order to solve this kind of issue, some high school design a new structure of girls bathroom. the of "urination only section" just like the boys room have. the "urination only section " have many squat urinals. defecation is not allow on squat urinal. the girls who defecate on squat urinal may be punish. the squat urinals have no door, no stall, no partition, so they can save more space for the girls to socialize with each other, and the girls can squat side by side, talk to each other in close distance without boundary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting pictures! Yes, men's urinals are the only thing common in western bathrooms that comes close to this level of openness--yet those are obviously never used for the other function. It seems weird for us to think of being that close to others for both bathroom activities. Also one could imagine how things like peeing posture for women are more openly discussed in that culture, when people witness them almost every day.

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:19 PM, Havelock said:

She has, for example, commented how it's funny that mom’s in the US think forward streams are a curse because girls may make a mess over the front of a western toilet, while its seen as blessing in China where it conveniently goes in front of their feet when squatting outside and no downside in a squat toilet. She thought this was common sense and I’m being a silly westerner for not seeing the practicality in context.

I have never heard that any parents were annoyed when their daughters have forward stream(other than in this forum). it is quite the opposite in China. it is common for little girls to squat to pee together outdoor in playground or amusement park in public, and their parents may compare the stream of their daughters with other girls. some of those parents may feel not normal when their daughters have downward stream while seeing other girls have forward stream. I read some Chinese forums and saw some parents who saw others girls pee further than their daughters would ask doctors whether it is normal for their daughters with downward stream.

I have never seen or heard any female with forward stream make mess over the front of western toilet. (other than in this forum, I have never seen or heard any where else)

both my mother and my fourth cousin had kind of forward stream while squat to urinate when they where still in China, but none of them have problem with western toilet as I have seen. when my mother was in China, when she was younger (in her early 30s) she almost always go with full force while squatting. when she use western toilet to urinating in public bathroom in Hong Kong, she always sat. but unlike when she squat in China, when she sat, she never go with full force. she almost always try to control her stream downward, and her stream almost always aim downward and aim at the water rather than hit the wall, as I heard. her pee sound were at non continuous interval and often begin to pee slowly in low volume, and then get louder and louder, and suddenly discontinue on the mid of peeing section when her stream hit the wall (her peeing sound often stop several times in one peeing section.she stop her stream suddenly for 2 or 3 seconds each time when her forward stream hit the wall, and then restart relieving her stream in low volume, two seconds after she stop) when she sat on western toilet. which was different from when she was squat. on the other hand, my fourth cousin almost always hit the wall with full force rather than hit the water when she sit on western toilet. she had forward stream and her pee sound were continuous when she sit down to pee just like when she squat, unlike my mother, only had forward continuous stream while squat, and make her stream downward and non continuous while sit. although both my mother and my fourth cousin had forward stream in full speed continuously when they squat to pee in China, my cousin go full speed and never try to control the stream downward when she sit just like she squat, but my mother control her stream downward while sit on western toilet. other than my mother and my fourth cousin, I have never seen anyone pee in both sit and squat position.

Edited April 22, 2023 by kitty and mimi

[Havelock 1,526]

6 hours ago, kitty and mimi said:

I have never heard that any parents were annoyed when their daughters have forward stream(other than in this forum). it is quite the opposite in China. it is common for little girls to squat to pee together outdoor in playground or amusement park in public, and their parents may compare the stream of their daughters with other girls. some of those parents may feel not normal when their daughters have downward stream while seeing other girls have forward stream. I read some Chinese forums and saw some parents who saw others girls pee further than their daughters would ask doctors whether it is normal for their daughters with downward stream.

I have never seen or heard any female with forward stream make mess over the front of western toilet. (other than in this forum, I have never seem or heard any where else)

My wife says this is frequently complained about by parents in the west. Here are a few example posts that reflect this. Many of these women think that female pee is supposed to go straight down. Some even suggest taking girls to the doctor because it goes forward. LOL. As you say, in China this would be considered good and normal because they can keep their feet dry. 

https://www.mamapedia.com/article/potty-problems-with-daughter-pee-should-not-shoot-out

https://community.babycenter.com/post/a23102873/my_girl_cant_pee_straight_down_help_please

[gldenwetgoose 21,495]

I'm going to interrupt again here.

I'm struggling to see anything being discussed which is new and different to the very lengthy discussions already in this topic and in the Urethra Angle thread.

Where there is something new to be said, of course that is fine.   But a lot of what I'm seeing written here still seems to fall into that powder keg of a guy discussing female anatomy and sweeping cultural statements.

Those who are contributing to this page, please read back to my post on Feb 4th (you'll find it third from the top of the page).  If anything is unclear about it please just ask a member of staff. 

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:19 PM, Havelock said:

others brought up anthropological evidence from non-porn sites (such as the of cultural preference/admiration/idiom for forward streams).We are lucky that some of these cultural expressions still exist to be recorded in the age of the internet.

I read your another post in another thread which your wife mentioned that in Chinese  agricultural society Women would pee and socialize together outside which naturally led to observing pee streams.  (they came up with a idiom that virgins more likely than non virgins to have forward stream)

I feel her idea was interesting, because according to my research in Chinese history and anthropology, in ancient China, although communal urination was common for single women, they were hardly mix with married women while peeing. single women usually did not pee with married women(unless they were relate to each other) in past. unlike the open Chinese ladies room in modern time, which both married and single women can mixed together and observed each other's stream. but even in school in Modern china that female teachers and students use same girls bathroom, the students go to bathroom during break time while the teachers go to bathroom during class session.(i heard that in some women prisons in Hong Kong, prisoners were separated into different sessions of prison by age groups) if virgins and non virgins do not mix with each other, they will not be able to observe each other's stream. (unlike bathroom room in college, public places,workplaces or at home that virgins and non virgins can mix together and observe each other's stream)

your wife mentioned that the idiom apply to before and after child birth. it was interpret in biological point of view, but some people in china interpret the idiom from more cultural and psychological point of view. they said that this is because married women are more self restraint than single women. although i think biological reason may be correct, psychological reason do play role. for example, although both my mother and my fourth cousin had forward stream while squat to pee when they were in china, their stream were different when they used western toilet. when my mother used western toilet when she was in Hong Kong, she tried to make her stream down.her stream sound were discontinuous (began with slow stream, low volume and then get louder and louder)and she suddenly stop her stream at the mid of a peeing session every time when her stream hit the wall.(she stopped her stream several times in one peeing session.) on the other hand, my fourth cousin never stop her stream(even her stream hit the wall) at the mid of peeing session until she finish peeing. her stream is strong and continuously. she never restrain until her bladder is completely empty.

On 4/18/2023 at 11:37 PM, Carb0nBased said:

It's kind of ironic that in cultures that are historically (and to some degree presently) conservative on the subject of homosexuality, it's almost more acceptable to go seeking partners in restrooms. In most of the western world now, homosexuality is quite normalized, but hitting on people in public bathrooms is seen as pervy and very much frowned upon, except in designated gay venues.

it is frowned upon too in China and Hong Kong if it was happen in men's room, but some research show that women are more likely to tolerate homosexuality than men. not only in china and Hong Kong, even according to a British journal of criminology, Sarah Moore (a senior lecturer at the Center for Criminology and Sociology at Royal Holloway, University of London)done a survey in 20 different public bathrooms in Long dong, from both men and women side. men are more likely than women to worry about being sexual attack by member of same sex inside gender segregation bathroom.

it is very interesting that how gender bathroom rules influence relationship. in high school in Hong Kong, during class session, many teachers do not allow two or more students of same sex go to bathroom together, because they don't want their students to spend the class time to talk to each other inside bathroom while peeing. they only allow two students of opposite sex go to bathroom at a time in separate gender bathroom, so they cannot talk to each other while peeing. but no one can prevent them from thinking about each other while peeing. that is easy for the boy to hit on the girl after they finish peeing. unlike going to bathroom during the break time, which girls go to bathroom together in group,which is harder to approach,but during the class session, the girl only allow to pee alone, more likely to feel lonely,which make her more vulnerable. the boy might even ask the girl her peeing experience, some thing like "how was the toilet seat?","was the toilet seat warn or cold?","was the toilet seat dirty or clean?".

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by kitty and mimi

[Carb0nBased 647]

23 hours ago, kitty and mimi said:

it is very interesting that how gender bathroom rules influence relationship. in high school in Hong Kong, during class session, many teachers do not allow two or more students of same sex go to bathroom together, because they don't want their students to spend the class time to talk to each other inside bathroom while peeing. they only allow two students of opposite sex go to bathroom at a time in separate gender bathroom, so they cannot talk to each other while peeing. but no one can prevent them from thinking about each other while peeing. that is easy for the boy to hit on the girl after they finish peeing. unlike going to bathroom during the break time, which girls go to bathroom together in group,which is harder to approach,but during the class session, the girl only allow to pee alone, more likely to feel lonely,which make her more vulnerable. the boy might even ask the girl her peeing experience, some thing like "how was the toilet seat?","was the toilet seat warn or cold?","was the toilet seat dirty or clean?".

 

That was really interesting to read! It makes sense that teachers don't want their students talking in the bathroom. I wonder how many of the girls show interest back. I almost couldn't imagine the start of a relationship being based around asking a woman about her peeing, though of course many of us might dream about such a thing...

It seems that before the arrival of Western toilets, questions like "How warm was the toilet seat" would have been harder to ask. I wonder if there ever were questions like "Were the foot rests too far apart"? or even "Did the toilet have a good splash guard in the front?" :-)

This all reminds me a bit of a situation I was in many years ago... I used to be a member of a hiking group and a few times we went on a short ferry ride to a picnic and hiking place. Upon getting off the ferry, we would set our stuff down, walk for maybe two hours, then come back and have a picnic (with wine--the group leader always brought some), and then catch the ferry back to our cars. On two of these trips I ended up talking with two different girls, each of  whom I'd never met before, and who both happened to be Asian. One started chatting with me on the ferry ride over, and the other time I approached and started talking to the second while we were hiking. At least one of the two was quite shy in general and didn't drink any of the wine either, but both were easy to talk with. In one of these instances, I believe it was the one who started talking to me on the ferry ride over, she had to use the bathroom by the ferry dock before we boarded again to head back. She sat down next to me on the boat afterward and said that the bathroom had been reasonably clean but not great. This made me want to ask more questions, like "have you found some messy toilets, and what did you do then?" and start a peeing-related discussion, that might lead to discussion of hovering or other peeing methods, but I thought she might find that weird. 

I never spoke to either of those two again--the thing with that group was that many people just came once and were kind of in a transitional period in their lives, and so weren't really looking for friends to get together with in the future.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Carb0nBased

[kitty and mimi 124]

last week,my younger sister told me that she feel inconvenient to pee in western toilet while wearing long skirt, because she need to pull up her long skirt and hold it while peeing. I told her to tie her skirt a knot in front of her, so she would not have to hold it.my younger sister began her transition at the mid of last year. she is not used to go to bathroom like other female do. it is not convenient for a transgender female to go to bathroom in public. she did not know if she should go to men's room or women's room, therefore, she had not use public bathroom for almost half year. she seem to had a large bladder because she  could drink a a bottle of water and  hold her pee for half day without going to bathroom while going out. now, she became more used to go to ladies room than before.

last week, we talked about how female school uniform in Asian countries influence peeing experience in girls bathroom . My younger sister told me that in Japanese high school, girls are required to wear short skirt as school uniform. I told her that it was opposite in Hong Kong. the high school girls in Hong Kong are required to wear long dress as school uniform. she felt very shock to learn that high schools in Hong Kong have entire opposite requirement. I felt surprise too, since I had never heard any schools require female students wear short skirt in Hong Kong. western toilets are more common in Hong Kong, while squat toilets are more common in Japan. it is more common for female high students to sit down to pee on western toilet while lifting up her long dress in Hong Kong. on the other hand, in Japan, it is more common for Japanese female students to squat while wearing short skirt.the combination of short skirt and squat toilet in Japan seem more convenient to pee than in Hong Kong and mainland China. In many high school in Hong Kong, girls are required to wear long skirt, while western toilets are more common in girls bathroom, which make urination less convenient. In mainland China, although open squat toilets are more common in high schools, but unlike other developed countries, female students are required to wear pants rather than skirt in most of schools most of time. in some kindergarten in china, school uniform are required, and little girls are required to were skirt, while other kindergarten do not required the kids to wear school uniform, but a lot of little girls wear skirt. squat toilets are also common in kindergarten in china, but at that age, some little girls still have problem to squat. there are handles in the bathroom for the girls to hold in order to support themselves while squat to pee so they will not fall down(the handles are partitions of squat toilets). girls were taught to use one hand to hold the handle, another hand is use to hold their skirt while squat to pee.

although my younger sister feel short skirt to be more convenient when it came to ladies room, she feel that was unsafe to wear short skirt which expos her body in public in mixed gender environment, because she fear of being sexually harassed by men in public places which outside of gender segregation environment. if she wear short skirt while going out, she prefer to be accompanied by other female friends. (this similar to some Chinese women who go to pee together in Chinese ladies room with open squat toilets which they need to exposed their lower body part to other female strangers while peeing. they feel safer to go to bathroom with other same sex friends, even in gender segregation environment. it seem that it is common for women to feel anxiety when they exposed their leg or lower body part in public, whether going out while wearing short skirt or peeing in open squat toilet. the way they balance this kind of anxiety and become less embarrassed is to find same sex partners to go out together or use bathroom together while show the same body part to each other.)

we talked to our third aunt yesterday. my younger sister ask her whether she like wearing skirt or not. she said that she wear skirt when she was younger, but now she does not wear skirt anymore. she said wearing skirt is very inconvenient. she said that skirts are better for young women rather than old women. when I was in China, she almost always wear skirt every time I saw her squat to pee. I hardly seen any of my cousins pee when they wear skirt(I only seen my fourth cousins peeing in sitting position while holding skirt up,but never seen her peeing in squat position while wearing skirt . I have never seen my other cousins peeing while wearing skirt. my first cousin almost never wear skirt at all, except school uniform that required in school), but most of my aunts wear skirts when I saw them peeing in squat position when I was in China(except my first aunt who never wear skirt at all). They always pull their skirt up while squatted to pee . I have never seen any of them pull down their skirt while peeing. I remember that when my mother was in China, she wear skirt most of time, but after she went to Hong Kong, she hardly even wear skirt. I am not sure if this have anything to do with different bathroom facility. when I saw my mother pee in squat position in China, she almost always wear skirt, but after I went to Hong Kong, when I saw my mother peeing in sitting position, she wear pants most of time(but I saw her wearing skirt while sit down to pee in western toilet several times.  ). my mother almost always pull her skirt up when she pee whether on western toilet or squat toilet. I have never seen her pull down her skirt to pee.

Edited May 12, 2023 by kitty and mimi

[Havelock 1,526]

@kitty and mimi you should ask your relatives if any of them remember wearing split pants or open crotch pants when they were younger.

[yellowii 238]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:19 AM, Havelock said:

I have been fortunate to both travel and have relationships with women from Asia (including China) who were open to discussing peeing or even participated in our fetish. My wife also has more extensive first hand experience in China (and other Asian countries). Without getting into my background I've had a fair bit of training in interviewing people on culture. @kitty and mimi and a couple of others brought up anthropological evidence from non-porn sites (such as the of cultural preference/admiration/idiom for forward streams). Finding and translating this material (I use Google translate in browser) is quite interesting. We are lucky that some of these cultural expressions still exist to be recorded in the age of the internet. I have had my wife reflect on the concepts. She has, for example, commented how it's funny that mom’s in the US think forward streams are a curse because girls may make a mess over the front of a western toilet, while its seen as blessing in China where it conveniently goes in front of their feet when squatting outside and no downside in a squat toilet. She thought this was common sense and I’m being a silly westerner for not seeing the practicality in context. I also asked her to ask her mother about some of the references Chinese myths/idioms and she confirmed those were in fact part of the culture in her days. 

In talking about this recently my wife reminded me that China was not impacted by the west until the late colonial period with the opium wars but the this impact was limited both geographically and culturally compared to other parts of the world.  Then in the 20th century while most of the world was strongly influenced by by western culture and media, this influence was largely absent until the 90s. Thus many habits and culture evolved less quickly. The more sophisticated and “proper” parts of society that might have embraced western manners were driven into exile by the cultural revolution. They were replaced by communist leadership that drove admiration for agrarian society and celebration of the common man. It's thus easy to see how old, agrarian habits, wives tales, superstition etc. would thrive. Then in the last 20 years, the culture has been more oriented to changing issues that drive business. She claimed that no one really thought poorly of pissing in the street until the communist party thought it might look bad during the olympics and thus started a bit of campaign around it and using diapers instead of split crotch. Now that the Olympics are over and the world seems to be getting more divided including the internet, there may not be as much pressure to clean up the streets. 

I would also love to hear more from @AbbyPeePrincess who has traveled in China recently.

What's the Chinese term for a forward stream?

[kitty and mimi 124]

2 hours ago, yellowii said:

What's the Chinese term for a forward stream?

I don't think Chinese have any official term for a forward stream. they just use the term "yitiaoxian"(一条线), which literally  mean "one straight line".

Edited June 27, 2023 by kitty and mimi

[kitty and mimi 124]

On 5/6/2023 at 11:21 PM, Carb0nBased said:

It makes sense that teachers don't want their students talking in the bathroom.

I think it maker more sense if the teachers don't want their female students to go to bathroom together, because they don't want their students spend too much time to talk in bathroom, but I don't think the male students will spend as much time to talk in bathroom as female students.

according to some researchers in London in Uk, including Sarah Moore,a professor of criminology at Royal Holloway, University of London,women generally feel more relax,pee slower and spend more time to talk in bathroom when going to bathroom with same sex friends. men, on  the other hand, would feel more anxiety, pee faster on urinal when going to bathroom with other men, especially, when they stand closer to each other.

I am not sure if this apply to middle school students. if this apply, the girls would pee slower and spend more time to talk to each other if they go to bathroom with friends during the class time. they will pee faster when peeing alone, during class time, when there were no other students inside the bathroom. on the other hand, the boys may pee faster and spend less time in bathroom if they go to bathroom together during class. they may pee slower and spend more class time inside the bathroom if peeing alone. if that is true, it will make more sense for the teachers to only allow boys to go to bathroom together.

On 5/6/2023 at 11:21 PM, Carb0nBased said:

I wonder how many of the girls show interest back.

according to my experience of listening to this kind of conversations, most girls who really answer those kind of questions were already have boyfriend. girls who have no boyfriend generally not answer this kind of question. I don't think this kind of conversation lead to any new relationship, but this can be a express of friendship.

when I first came to The United States, I joined a youth club in a Chinese church. At one evening, when we finished dinner, and about to begin a group meeting, I heard a conversion about bathroom between a boy and a girl.

I don't know their Chinese names, because people in that group called each other's English naked name. The boy's name was David, while the girl's name was Destiny. David came from Hong Kong, where the place I came from. Destiny was came from Guangzhou, China which the place I was born.

Destiny was a popular girl in that group, she already had a boyfriend at that time, while I had never heard David had any girlfriend.

At that evening, when everyone finish dinner, many people went to bathroom. at that time, when David seeing Destiny was alone, he feel strange, because all her friends already went to bathroom, he felt very strange, because she did not join her friends to go to bathroom. He asked Destiny why she did not go to bathroom. below is their conversation.

David:"are you going to bathroom?"

Destiny:"I have full bladder, but I don't want to go, because I just eaten a lot, I am full. "

David:"do you usually go to bathroom when your  stomach is empty?"

Destiny:"I don't want to squat when my stomach is full."

David:"do you squat to pee?"

Destiny:...............

(i think what she mean "squat" was actually hovering. David was came from Hong Kong, he did not know how popular squat toilet is in mainland China. I think Destiny would used the word "squat" a lot when she was in China, she may use the word "squat" as hover, since there is no formal  term in Chinese for hovering, except several slang terms.)

after a while, Destiny felt she really need to pee. she went to the bathroom. when pass by the door of men's room, she said to those who came in and came out:" you guys are lucky, because you can stand, you don't need to squat." eventually, she just went to a empty ladies room by her self, because all girls were already finish peeing, the ladies room was very empty.

I once read a article in a Chinese website, it was called"the secret inside Chinese women's room"(if I remembered correctly) The author was a married woman. She mention one evening, when she and her husband go to eat dinner together in a restaurant. at the end of the dinner, both the man and the woman had drank a lot, both of them had to pee. the bathroom in the restaurant is gender segregation, with western toilets that were kind of dirty. when they were about to separate into different side of bathroom, the man did not even care about his wife's situation, and he even joke about the peeing position that his wife about to use. before they separate into different gender side of the bathroom, the man said to his wife:"hey,sweetheart, you are about to practice your horse stance tonight. good luck!"

(horse stance is a common posture in Chinese martial art. which two feet go apart, pointing forward, bend 90 degree,thigh parallel to floor, as if one is riding a horse. the Chinese term is "Zamabu" which is also used as a slang term by Chinese women as hover to pee. it is common in mandarin speaking region in mainland China. In Hong Kong or in other Cantonese speaking region, the slang term used by women for hovering to pee is "mo ying deng". it mean invisible chair.  )

the woman mentioned above felt very disappointed  when she heard that her husband joke about her bathroom position and did not even care about her bathroom situation.

in most of time, when women answer to men about those bathroom conversation, most of those women were already married or in relationship, but their husband or boyfriend did not even care  about their bathroom situation, therefore they talk to other men instead.

On 5/6/2023 at 11:21 PM, Carb0nBased said:

I almost couldn't imagine the start of a relationship being based around asking a woman about her peeing, though of course many of us might dream about such a thing...

I have never heard any relationship that begin with asking a woman about her peeing, but for those who already began a relationship, at least in some places in China, couple can see each other peeing in public bathroom.

in some night clubs and ballrooms in China, there are single stall all genders bathrooms which is better design for couple. each bathroom with one western toilet with no urinal. a couple can go into the bathroom together, but only one person at a time can pee. women who hover to pee on western toilet may bring their boyfriend to the bathroom to hold their hand while they pee in order to prevent them from falling. when couple go to bathroom together, man usually pee first (not the lady first, which is unlike the west). after the man finish peeing in stand position, his girlfriend will pee in hovering position, his job is to hold her two hands in front just like ballroom dancing when she is hovering to pee, so she will not fall down. in such situation, men would want to pee first. the women need to hold their pee a little longer even if they feel urge, wait until their boyfriend finish peeing before they can pee.

it seem that bathroom norm influence people's relationship inside bathroom. modern bathroom have long been considered to be community center of women in modern Chinese culture, since men don't usually go to bathroom together. the all gender bathroom with single stall influence women's relationship with other people differently compare to the gender segregation bathroom. In all gender bathroom with single stall, women can go to bathroom with their boyfriend or husband. when they hovering to pee, they can getting support by holding hands with their partners by holding their hands. but at the same time, in single stall all gender bathroom, women cannot make new friends inside the bathroom, they cannot talk to their same sex friends about their husband or boyfriends in a gender segregation environment without being heard by the men.

in gender segregation bathroom with western toilet stalls in China, the men may not even care about the difficulty of their wives or girlfriend, some of them even joke about their peeing position before they separate into different gender sign of the bathroom. the women side of a gender segregation bathroom would be more focus on the relationship between women rather than couples. especially, in a women's room with open squat toilet, women can talk to each other about their boyfriend, their father, their husband, or even their sons, without fear of being heard by men, while seeing each other peeing.  women will feel more equality in open bathroom in gender segregation environment, because women can pee together at the same time, and everyone squat, no one stand, unlike the all gender single stall bathroom, which men pee first in stand position while women pee second in hovering position. this kind of experience cannot be found in all gender single stall bathroom. therefore, different kind of bathroom focus on different kind of relationship. the all gender single stall bathroom which a couple can go inside at the same time, seem imply a Status quo of traditional family value. although the women may feel safer and being protected while holding hand with their boyfriend while hovering to pee, it may also reinforce the belief of their bodily disadvantage that they need support from men. on the other hand,in a bathroom with open squat toilets in a gender segregation environment,it represent gender equality and a higher status of modern women that can be independent from men.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by kitty and mimi