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2 hours ago, niceguy1 said:

Beachmom, your comment about changing swimsuit styles made me think back to when I was a child growing up in the US in the 1970s.  The kind of swim suit that I and all the other boys wore back then was a kind of stretchy, form-fitting fabric that you sometimes had to struggle with to pull on, especially if it was wet.  It was thicker fabric than a speedo (although I've never worn a speedo myself) and just slightly stretchy, not like spandex.  I'm not sure what it was made of.  It was also short as was the style for men and boys then.  It covered just the very upper part of your thighs, sort of like boxer briefs today, but shorter.  I don't remember exactly, but I probably wore that style of suit into my teen years.  If you watch movies from the 50s and 60s that's what the guys typically wore.  It was only the older men back then, like my grandfather's age, who wore the loose, baggy type of suit that guys usually wear today, but it was much shorter too.  By the time I was college age I was definitely wearing the loose fitting suits, but even in the 1980s they were still somewhat shorter than today's suits.  The suits I've worn in recent years actually bother me with so much fabric getting in the way as they nearly approach the knees.  I did recently see some in the stores that seemed to be slightly shorter so maybe the pendulum is about to swing the other way. 

I think I've mentioned this in a previous post on here, but there's also another difference in women's swimsuits between the 1970s and today beyond them becoming more revealing.   Back then the one piece women's suits usually had some padding up top (at least the ones my mother wore did) but bikini tops universally did not then.  So it was commonplace to see nipples poking through on the girls and women who wore them.  As an insecure teenager, it kind of made me a little uncomfortable to be in the presence of women so attired lol.  Today, it seems like the vast majority of bikini tops have some sort of padding.  I'm not sure if the purpose is to make things look fuller there, or to hide the outline of the nipples, or both. 

But I think it is true that whatever you are presented with as something normal during your childhood, whether it's clothing styles or nudity or peeing practices, is what you will be comfortable with and see as normal as you get older, even into adulthood.  I was extremely private about peeing and bathroom usage as a child, but I didn't give it a second thought to wriggle into that tiny, form-fitting swim suit because it was the only thing I had ever worn for swimming and every other boy was wearing the same thing.

It's interesting you mention swim suits in your youth.  Just like I have mentioned witnessing different cultures around peeing in the US vs. EU when I was growing up, I also noticed different cultures around dressing and nudity. In the 70s ad 80s in France and Spain I remember many kids going nude at the beach or to swim. Nudity for older people also seemed accepted. Many moms even went topless. This was a stark contrast to many places in the US.

 

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4 hours ago, Havelock said:

It's interesting you mention swim suits in your youth.  Just like I have mentioned witnessing different cultures around peeing in the US vs. EU when I was growing up, I also noticed different cultures around dressing and nudity. In the 70s ad 80s in France and Spain I remember many kids going nude at the beach or to swim. Nudity for older people also seemed accepted. Many moms even went topless. This was a stark contrast to many places in the US.

 

One more thing that I just thought of as I was reading this.  We have a home movie in our family that's probably from the late 1960s, when I was about four or five years old.  I'm on the beach together with the daughter of some good friends of my parents.  The daughter was the same age as me.  We used to go to each other's birthday parties.  The interesting thing is that the daughter is just wearing a frilly, tutu-like bathing suit bottom and nothing on top.  This was commonplace back then for young girls who were still many years away from puberty to only wear bottoms on the beach or for swimming.  It was probably thought to be unnecessary for them to wear tops if they didn't have anything to hide and looked the same as the boys at that age.  I'm not sure when that changed.  I think it lasted throughout most of the 70s and probably died out in the 80s.  I don't remember anyone back then, boy or girl, going completely nude, except for the occasional one year old.  Nowadays, no matter how young the girl is, even just two or three,  it's pretty much guaranteed that her parents will put her in either a complete two piece or a one piece. 

Havelock, from what you can remember of France and Spain in the 70s and 80s, was it just on a designated nude beach that older people and kids alike felt comfortable being nude, or did it happen on a general, non-designated nude beach as well?  On a non-nude beach, up to what age did the kids typically swim without a suit?  Was that both boys and girls, or just boys?  It was before my time, but from what I've read it seems that it was commonplace for many years in the US for boys to swim nude, either at the YMCA or at their school's pool, and even sometimes at the beach, but it was extremely rare for girls to do that.

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4 hours ago, niceguy1 said:

One more thing that I just thought of as I was reading this.  We have a home movie in our family that's probably from the late 1960s, when I was about four or five years old.  I'm on the beach together with the daughter of some good friends of my parents.  The daughter was the same age as me.  We used to go to each other's birthday parties.  The interesting thing is that the daughter is just wearing a frilly, tutu-like bathing suit bottom and nothing on top.  This was commonplace back then for young girls who were still many years away from puberty to only wear bottoms on the beach or for swimming.  It was probably thought to be unnecessary for them to wear tops if they didn't have anything to hide and looked the same as the boys at that age.  I'm not sure when that changed.  I think it lasted throughout most of the 70s and probably died out in the 80s.  I don't remember anyone back then, boy or girl, going completely nude, except for the occasional one year old.  Nowadays, no matter how young the girl is, even just two or three,  it's pretty much guaranteed that her parents will put her in either a complete two piece or a one piece. 

Havelock, from what you can remember of France and Spain in the 70s and 80s, was it just on a designated nude beach that older people and kids alike felt comfortable being nude, or did it happen on a general, non-designated nude beach as well?  On a non-nude beach, up to what age did the kids typically swim without a suit?  Was that both boys and girls, or just boys?  It was before my time, but from what I've read it seems that it was commonplace for many years in the US for boys to swim nude, either at the YMCA or at their school's pool, and even sometimes at the beach, but it was extremely rare for girls to do that.

I can say that for the most part when you walk down to a beach the area right in front of you is normally the most conservative where you will see many families. The further you walk up or down the beach the less clothing you will see, topless and sometimes nude for a bit until you near the next access point. There aren't really any nude beaches per say, but rather clothing optional zones between the beach access points.  As for the American YMCA's    https://www.vocativ.com/culture/fun/fairly-recently-ymca-actually-required-swimmers-nude/index.html

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On 1/24/2023 at 4:01 PM, niceguy1 said:

Havelock, from what you can remember of France and Spain in the 70s and 80s, was it just on a designated nude beach that older people and kids alike felt comfortable being nude, or did it happen on a general, non-designated nude beach as well?  On a non-nude beach, up to what age did the kids typically swim without a suit?  Was that both boys and girls, or just boys?  It was before my time, but from what I've read it seems that it was commonplace for many years in the US for boys to swim nude, either at the YMCA or at their school's pool, and even sometimes at the beach, but it was extremely rare for girls to do that.

These were not designated nude beaches. I don't really remember ages but I think without a suit until maybe 8 or 9 for both genders. Topless for females was all ages.  Its not quite as frequent any more but you still see this attitude in Spanish and French beaches. There was/is also a lax attitude towards changing in public that went even older. If we were going to a fancy beach club with food, drinks and service we would change in their changing rooms. Otherwise we would often change in the open on the beach or beside the car with no attempt to hide with towels etc. like you see in the US. 

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20 hours ago, Havelock said:

These were not designated nude beaches. I don't really remember ages but I think without a suit until maybe 8 or 9 for both genders. Topless for females was all ages.  Its not quite as frequent any more but you still see this attitude in Spanish and French beaches. There was/is also a lax attitude towards changing in public that went even older. If we were going to a fancy beach club with food, drinks and service we would change in their changing rooms. Otherwise we would often change in the open on the beach or beside the car with no attempt to hide with towels etc. like you see in the US. 

I've heard about the lax attitude toward changing in public from a friend who has German cousins who were born and raised there.  He commented that on at least one occasion when visiting the beach with them there, his female cousins would change right in front of him beside the car in the parking lot.  They didn't seem to be the least bit concerned that they were exposing their breasts to their American cousin who was not used to this custom.

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On 1/26/2023 at 12:10 AM, Havelock said:

These were not designated nude beaches. I don't really remember ages but I think without a suit until maybe 8 or 9 for both genders. Topless for females was all ages.  Its not quite as frequent any more but you still see this attitude in Spanish and French beaches. There was/is also a lax attitude towards changing in public that went even older. If we were going to a fancy beach club with food, drinks and service we would change in their changing rooms. Otherwise we would often change in the open on the beach or beside the car with no attempt to hide with towels etc. like you see in the US. 

Havelock, I have a few questions about Spain since you have spent a lot of time there.  I took a few brief trips there in the 80s and 90s but never witnessed any of the open peeing that you experienced from your time living there.  I really like the country and would like to go again sometime.  I read something on another site that was written from someone who was born and raised in China and who was comparing the open peeing culture of China to Spain.  It seems like she lived in Spain for a time in college or as a young adult.  Because it was an anonymous post like we see on this site I wasn't sure how accurate the reports were.  It sounds like her experience is recent, probably within the last ten years.  She said that it is very common and accepted for both men and women to pee openly in the street in the major cities at night.  She would talk about a group of friends leaving a bar or restaurant and the guys would just pee right in front of the girls on the sidewalk and the girls would do the same there or in a storefront window.  Supposedly the municipal government knows this and every morning has trucks that spray down the sidewalks and storefronts with water.  The Chinese woman who posted this mentioned one experience early in her time there when she was still getting used to their customs.  The group had just come out into the street and was taking their positions to pee.  She went over to a patch of grass like they would in China, but one of the other girls called out to her and said there's no need to go all the way over there, asking her to come alongside her to pee together in front of the closed storefront.  From your experience, Havelock, does this sound like the current day custom of Spain?  That this type of thing is commonplace and there would be no fear of legal repercussions?

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3 hours ago, niceguy1 said:

Havelock, I have a few questions about Spain since you have spent a lot of time there.  I took a few brief trips there in the 80s and 90s but never witnessed any of the open peeing that you experienced from your time living there.  I really like the country and would like to go again sometime.  I read something on another site that was written from someone who was born and raised in China and who was comparing the open peeing culture of China to Spain.  It seems like she lived in Spain for a time in college or as a young adult.  Because it was an anonymous post like we see on this site I wasn't sure how accurate the reports were.  It sounds like her experience is recent, probably within the last ten years.  She said that it is very common and accepted for both men and women to pee openly in the street in the major cities at night.  She would talk about a group of friends leaving a bar or restaurant and the guys would just pee right in front of the girls on the sidewalk and the girls would do the same there or in a storefront window.  Supposedly the municipal government knows this and every morning has trucks that spray down the sidewalks and storefronts with water.  The Chinese woman who posted this mentioned one experience early in her time there when she was still getting used to their customs.  The group had just come out into the street and was taking their positions to pee.  She went over to a patch of grass like they would in China, but one of the other girls called out to her and said there's no need to go all the way over there, asking her to come alongside her to pee together in front of the closed storefront.  From your experience, Havelock, does this sound like the current day custom of Spain?  That this type of thing is commonplace and there would be no fear of legal repercussions?

 I don't spend nearly as much time in Spain now as I did growing up but what you described sounds totally plausible. I have personally witnessed public peeing like this around hot spots within the last decade. It is also interesting that Spaniards often don't mind peeing on hard/built surfaces like the storefronts or entry ways you mention. Given what I experienced with nannies encouraging me to pee in places like that, I guess it just continues into adulthood. Some of the Spanish public peeing videos also show this brazen peeing. 

I believe the culture still supports peeing in public in upbringing today. My cousins in Spain seem to be taking the same approach with the next generation as we experienced growing up.  Thus it's natural that would make people comfortable peeing in all these public places when they get older.

The Spanish governments does seem to wash the streets quite often. It's hard to say if this is cause or effect. Do people pee freely in the street because they know it will be washed? Or do they wash the streets because so many people pee in them?

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1 hour ago, Havelock said:

"She said that it is very common and accepted for both men and women to pee openly in the street in the major cities at night.  She would talk about a group of friends leaving a bar or restaurant and the guys would just pee right in front of the girls on the sidewalk and the girls would do the same there or in a storefront window.  Supposedly the municipal government knows this and every morning has trucks that spray down the sidewalks and storefronts with water.  The Chinese woman who posted this mentioned one experience early in her time there when she was still getting used to their customs."

If that is the current custom there, and not something in the past, I  think a trip to Spain is now on  my bucket list for the near future. The idea of just walking out of a bar at night, and just peeing on the sidewalk or street, and the girls doing likewise, instead of looking for an alley to duck into to piss, I am all for it. 

 

 

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On 1/24/2023 at 9:36 PM, beachmom said:

I can say that for the most part when you walk down to a beach the area right in front of you is normally the most conservative where you will see many families. The further you walk up or down the beach the less clothing you will see, topless and sometimes nude for a bit until you near the next access point. There aren't really any nude beaches per say, but rather clothing optional zones between the beach access points.  As for the American YMCA's    https://www.vocativ.com/culture/fun/fairly-recently-ymca-actually-required-swimmers-nude/index.html

Beachmom, were these beaches that you're referring to in Romania and Eastern Europe, or does this description apply generally to beaches throughout Europe?  That's interesting that even on beaches that are not designated as nude there are clothing optional areas where it is accepted.  I'm sure that would not go over too well at non-nude beaches in the US.  And yes, I've only read about the male nude swimming at the YMCA and swim meets at schools since it ended right before my childhood, but it does seem to be well-documented even though our modern-day American mind seems to have a hard time accepting that it could ever happen.  Unfortunately, the generation that experienced it first-hand is getting to be quite old so the opportunity to ask questions to them directly is quickly fading away.

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On 1/28/2023 at 4:32 PM, Havelock said:

 I don't spend nearly as much time in Spain now as I did growing up but what you described sounds totally plausible. I have personally witnessed public peeing like this around hot spots within the last decade. It is also interesting that Spaniards often don't mind peeing on hard/built surfaces like the storefronts or entry ways you mention. Given what I experienced with nannies encouraging me to pee in places like that, I guess it just continues into adulthood. Some of the Spanish public peeing videos also show this brazen peeing. 

I believe the culture still supports peeing in public in upbringing today. My cousins in Spain seem to be taking the same approach with the next generation as we experienced growing up.  Thus it's natural that would make people comfortable peeing in all these public places when they get older.

The Spanish governments does seem to wash the streets quite often. It's hard to say if this is cause or effect. Do people pee freely in the street because they know it will be washed? Or do they wash the streets because so many people pee in them?

Thanks for the response Havelock.  As I mentioned before, I've only visited Spain for brief periods in the past but I really like it there and it wouldn't be a bad place to retire.  My first couple trips were in high school in the early 1980s.  Since there was no internet then I had no way of knowing that peeing in public was widely accepted there.  I was aware that women sometimes went topless on the beaches since Johnny Carson mentioned it on the Tonight Show, but that was about it.  I never noticed any public peeing while I was there then, but I wasn't really looking for it either since I was not expecting it.  I remember being in the Parque del Retiro in Madrid on a Saturday in the spring.  We walked all through the park and went in the paddle boats on the lake but I never saw anyone of any age peeing.  On my second trip we were staying in Malaga and our young Spanish guide took all of us to the Why Not? discoteque in Torremolinos without the teacher/chaperones.  A lot of the kids took the opportunity to get pretty drunk (legally) and were staggering back to the hotel but I didn't notice them or any of the other people around peeing on the way.  They must have used the bathroom in the club before we left.  I do remember the next morning some of the girls mentioning that one of the other girls had passed out in the room and peed her pants, but I didn't witness this.  As an aside, we stayed at the Hotel Alfa in Malaga that was a short walk to the beach.  Since I had heard from television that women went topless on the beach in Europe I had some anticipation that I might get to witness this first hand.  But I was disappointed that there was no one at all on the beach.  At that point I didn't realize that the main beach season is in July and August, and although it didn't seem that cold to me that day, apparently no one there felt like swimming or sunbathing in April lol! 

There was another experience on another trip in the early 1990s that I was hoping you could help me interpret, Havelock.  I think it was in Algeciras at the train station when we were planning to take the ferry to Tangier in Morocco.  I was travelling with my sister and her female friends so I walked alone into the men's room to pee.  It was empty except for one young guy, about 16 or 17 years old, who was standing in front of the row of urinals facing out toward me as I walked in.  He wasn't peeing and it looked like he had been standing there for a while.  He didn't make any attempt to move or do anything, he just stood there, probably two feet in front of the urinals.  He made eye contact with me like he wanted to have some kind of interaction with me but didn't say anything..  I was older than him, in my late 20s at the time.  I got a weird, creepy feeling from him but I didn't know if this was due to cultural differences or just my own insecurities.  Ideas started running through my head, like maybe he was a sex worker looking for a client, or maybe a pickpocket/thief.  I thought that maybe it was just curiosity because I looked like a foreigner.  He seemed to be clean and fairly neat so I don't think he was homeless.  But if he wanted to beg for food or money, doing it inside the men's room probably was not the best business strategy.  In any event, I had to make a quick decision and decide if this kid was a threat or not.  I got the feeling that if I walked up to the urinal and unzipped that he would stare at me while I peed.  My modern day self would have probably just pushed through it and ignored him whether he watched or not.  But back then I wasn't that comfortable using urinals under the best of circumstances so I retreated to the stall, which was one of those hole in the ground squat toilets but at least it was behind a closed door.  I don't remember if he was still there when I got out of the stall but he may have been.  It seemed like he had been loitering there for a long time.  What do you think it was Havelock?  Is there anything in your knowledge of the culture of Spain that could explain this as normal behavior or was he doing something shady?  I'm pretty sure there was no one else in there at the time, but if he was waiting for someone to finish in the stalls, at least in the US we would wait either in front of the stalls or by the sinks, not directly in front of the urinals facing out toward the guys approaching them. 

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