Brexit

[2prnot2p 1,066]

Could someone from the UK please explain this topic to me?  From the news here in the States, it seems to be a mess that I cannot make head or tail of.  I did, however, read an article that seemed quite neutral and it broke all of the issues down quite well.  If the article is correct on its facts, I can see why many wish to leave the EU.  Apparently, the red tape, money, rules, etc., of being in the EU are ridiculous.  Also, many folks don't like some of the laws that are imposed on EU member nations.  That's what I got from the article I read.

But, I do have one online pal in the UK.  He thinks leaving the EU is complete madness.  We haven't emailed at length on it as he isn't the political type.  So, I'm confused.

Lastly, as a resident of a European nation, do you think that Brexit will lead to other countries leaving?  I'm so very curious.  I love learning about other cultures, even their difficulties. 

Thanks so much! 🙂

Edited December 15, 2018 by 2prnot2p
Typo

[F.W 5,734]

Im an extreme Brexiteer.I would deal with this situation by an airstrike on the EU headquarters.Im sure this wont happen.....Basically,we must take orders from the continental Europeans,the Germans,French,Belgians etc.In other words those countries who in history,we have either liberated,or defeated from each other.We leave voters,will perceive the EU,as basically the krauts,trying to rule all Europe...Again."Grossdeutschland" rears its ugly head.3rd time lucky perhaps,Fritz?.....But THIS time with a non military way,an invade Europe with millions of African,and Arabic "refugees" way....About 4 years ago,Mrs Merkel,the German leader,decided it would be a brilliant idea,to allow untold millions of African/Arabic "refugees" to come live in Europe.

Millions of people of alien heritage,to whom a Michaelangelo statue in Rome,represents somewhere to take a crap behind kind of.Also it has come to pass,that many of these "refugees" are,in fact,ISIS terrorists.The 2015 Bataclan outrage was done by mainly these "refugees".Getting into Europe,then unleashing carnage on the streets of what was once the "city of light".Now,its more like the city of sleeping bags,thousands of these people camping on Parisian boulevards etc.Also there have been hundreds of other incidents involving these feral "refugees",rapes,murders,and other terrorist outrages.They seem to come to Europe,and become quickly alienated by our liberal way of life.In Germany,they now even teach these people that if a woman smiles at you,it DOESNT mean she wants your babies.This is mainly most British leavers reason leaving.We dont want the UK becoming like Germany is now.

It would be like the USA,being dictated to by a group of countries like Belize,Honduras,Venezuela etc.

What happened was a referendum was called,in June 2016,and it was a close result,but in democracy you only need 1 vote to tip the balance.It was 52% to 48%,17 odd million to 16 odd million.Leave the EU WON.Of course most of our politicians have their futures tied up with the EU so THEY have decided to try delay,or even deny the will of the people.The people of the Britain,or 52% of us(STILL A 4% MAJORITY)have said no to European(GERMAN) domination,and further influxes of "refugees" into OUR country.

Because our Prime Minister is weak,and gutless,she is making the UK a laughing stock.What we leave voters are confused by,is how our desire to leave,has been hijacked into a desire to "negotiate" with these European gangsters,for the purpose of the UK being able to still sell stuff which they still need anyway.

To be even in the EU costs the UK about £40 BILLION a year.Money which we could use for health,or building more tanks,so one day we can invade Europe and crush the krauts for good!

Yes,i cetainly hope that WHEN the UK quits this bloc,that eventually ALL European countries will leave,and return Europe to all nations again,being good neighbours and friends,but independently living in peace....Besides,we dont want to have to go liberate them from the krauts again do we?Or do we?

By the way,i voted leave,just in case you wondered!😂

Edited December 15, 2018 by F.W

[F.W 5,734]

What is rarely mentioned,is the word "patriotism".

As if we leave voters,when on our way to the ballot box,spent weeks agonising over our balance of payments,whether or not our service sector might be adversely affected.Will the health service have enough Slovakian nurses?

No,i voted leave because i felt to be ruled by foreigners was wrong for my country.Not thinking about any of that crap.I grew up in a time when the UK was a free independent strong nation,with a sense of its own great heritage.The country of Churchill,Wellington,Nelson.A country that has resisted all invasion since 1066,and many have eyed our land with envious eyes,Bonaparte,Hitler,the Spanish in 1588.

I dont know if any of our European "friends" can say they have been free of invasion.Most of them have invaded each other a few times in the last 1000 years..

Patriotism,big in the USA,despised in Britain lately.

Edited December 15, 2018 by F.W

[2prnot2p 1,066]

F.W   Thank you so very much for your response.  I truly appreciate it and I can feel your anguish. 

Let me say this.  My grandpa moved here to the USA from London in 1907.  This is my mom's dad.  He was a young cockney of 16.  When WWI broke out, the USA was not yet involved.  So, what did he do?  He lived in Detroit, Michigan.  He went across the border to Windsor, Ontario and VOLUNTEERED for the Canadian army!!!  He wanted to fight for his homeland.  Yes, he did that!  He was 23.

He fought in the trenches of France, telling me stories of how cold, wet, and horrible it was in the war.  The Germans even used gas on his unit on a few occasions.  While on leave, he met my grandma from Warrington.  After the war, she came to Detroit and they married.  He loved this country, the USA.  He always told me, "Billy, this is the best country in the world!"  But, I would often ask, "What about England or Canada?  You fought for them!"  His reply was, "I couldn't sit here in Detroit while England suffered.  I had to fight!"

Fast forward to WWII.  My dad's brother, Stanley, served at the Battle Of The Bulge.  In case you're not aware, this was the most horrible battle in U.S. military history.  The battle lasted 6 weeks, from mid-December of 1944 to the end of January 1945.  My uncle came back okay but died when I was only 8.

So, F.W......I'm of the mind set that....here we go...I'm going to get bad replies.....Germany can go to hell and should deal with ALL the refugees!

There, I said it.  They owe the whole freaking world, like, forever! 

Recently, I met a new tenant in my apartment building and he had an accent.  I asked him where he was from.  He replied, "Europe."  I then told him that I wanted to know his country of origin.  He finally said, "Germany."  Trying to be nice, I said, "You guys make really good cars."  After a pause, he replied, "We make everything good!"  I am NOT kidding you, pee fans.  So...I thought for a moment about my family history, as I was quite put off by his response.  Finally, I exclaimed, "Yeah, especially ovens and gas chambers!"  Uh, yeah, I said that.  He went on to say that his grandpa fought for Hitler and had to or he would be imprisoned or  executed.  Ah, what a noble guy, eh?  I also asked this tenant if they really teach the kids in Germany all of the gory details of their horrible dictator.  His reply was, "I think it's best to forget the past and focus on the good of the present."  Enough said.

In closing, let's just say that I am not too fond of Germany or Germans.  And, if Brits wanna leave the EU, LET THEM!!!

(Please read my newer post below.)

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by 2prnot2p
New details added.

[WantonLee 861]

F.W. said it all, and I totally agree. I hope that the EU falls apart like a house of cards. It's probably interesting to note that the major problem with the EU as it is stems from the fact that we have a common currency since 2000, the Euro -> €.

This is probably the worst thing that could have happened to Europe in total, and the economically poorer countries of Europe especially.

See, befor the Euro, every country had full control over their own currency. After the Euro, this was no longer the case. Take Italy or Greece for example. Those countries were never as industrialized as England or Germany, and so they had to import more goods then they could export. All in all, they were net importers of goods, end net exporters of money.

This meant those countries were slowly bleeding out, moneywise, and had to print new money in order to stabilize their economy. But it also ment the lacked the money to modernize their own industries and become independed of imports.

With the Euro, they where not able to do that, and thats when the situation in those countries became worse. They were still beeding out, but now had now way to compensate. And THIS was Germanys plan all along! See, Germany is Europe's only net exporter (of goods) and therefore Europe's only net importer (of money). before the Euro, germany had to life with the fact that all the money they imported was slowly loosing value, due to the fact the countries it came from were printing more money... something known as "inflation". Germany didn't want that, so the invented the Euro and force all of the other european countries to use it, too. All but England! 😄

 

Anyway, the situation became so worse, that Greece had only two choices: abandon the Euro, or get a big injection of money.

The problem was solved eventually by getting a lot of money from germany (and England, on German orders). But while England handed over the money just like that, the Germans only lend the money - in exchange for political influence.

That political influence was used to make Greece sell their state property, like their harbours and railways and such, and finally privatize them. So, at least in this case we did them a favor. How? Just a small example, the railways: when they were state-owned, their job was to transport people and goods, while having to financially break even.

Now their job is to make money (aka "profit") by taking the money from the passengers and the companies that need their goods transported, and hand over that money to the shareholders... actually transporting those passengers and goods is optional, though. But, hey: they have no alternative to the railways, otherwise they wouldn't be using them... so they will continue giving money to the shareholders. A classical win-loose situation, capitalism at it's finest! 😄

I think this is one of the few cases where Germany actually did a good thing... mind you, before 1989 Germany was a communist nation, and they actually never had heard about capitalizm... so, there is hope. In theory, at least... .

 

Then again, I think in hindsight it would have been a good idea to follow the plan of Bomber Harries consequently trough to the bitter(-sweet) end and level every german city - not only the major ones - while they had a chance in WWII. Even worse - after the war ended,  the commies from Russia had a chance to fully rebuild Germany and lead it to it's current strength.

It was THE chance to turn Ger-many into Ger-few.... and you missed it. Shame on you, Brits! Just look at Europe falling prey to the Nazi's... again. Thats all YOUR fault! 😠

And now you are trying to cowardly stealing away.... . Brexit my... donkey.

Don't you have nukes? Don't you know what they are for? How about you finish what you have started?

Or do you want to wait until Germany has nuke's too? if you think Europe has a problem NOW... think again! But do it quickly... .

[likesToLick 10,216]

On 12/15/2018 at 8:13 PM, 2prnot2p said:

if Brits wanna leave the EU, LET THEM!!!

 

This is in fact "the problem".   Only 37 per cent of UK voters actually voted to leave.   They did so on the basis of a whole lot of lies that were told to them,  many of which have been repeated in this thread. 

Of the remaining 63% OF UK voters,  about 34% voted "remain", and 29% did not vote for anything to happen at all,  which essentially also means "remain".

Now the lies have been exposed,  and people are beginning to realize the amount of economic and social misery that is going to happen to them,  many of the original 37% who voted to leave have changed their minds.   This means that if another referendum was held now,  it almost certainly would not pass.  Many British people are  therefore agitating for another vote,  in order to put an end to the madness.

This has the hard core "Quitlings" who still want to leave screaming with racist rage,  as we have also seen in this thread.

So we now have the insane situation, that most Brits do not want to leave the EU,  but they can't figure out how to stop it from happening.

Oh just by the way,   those of us British citizens who live outside the country,  and thus know how valuable it is to have a passport that gives you the right to live and work anywhere in the world's largest western economy,  were not allowed to vote at all.

 

[2prnot2p 1,066]

I was not aware of the vote numbers.  That does put a whole different spin on it.  It reminds me of when Bill Clinton was elected here without a majority of the vote.  He had 43%.  George H.W. Bush had 38% and H. Ross Perot had 19%. 

I must assume that it's a much more complicated thing than UK voters realized at the time of the vote.  Politicians lied to the voters?  What?!  You must be joking.  That never happens. 🤣

Maybe my pal in the UK who told me it was "complete madness" to leave was right.  I will say one thing.  This wave of nationalism that is sweeping the western world is a very scary thing.  I really don't think it will prevail in the end.  It didn't in the 1930's and 1940's, did it?  People must remember where it led back then.

At any rate, it really is a mess.  As for swapping leaders, I'd swap ours for ANY leader in the western world.  You can have him and all his lies, rudeness, arrogance, stupidity, bigotry, and egomania any time you want him.  LOL!  Could we maybe get Trudeau?  Yeah, I'll take him in a second.

Edited December 17, 2018 by 2prnot2p

[WantonLee 861]

8 hours ago, owlman76 said:

This whole thing is being led by Germany in an attempt to control Europe, they keep going on about Putin and Russia being hell bent on ruling Europe, exactly what is the difference between his alleged ideals and those of Germany.

Keep in mind that by now the entire British media is under full german control - either directly or by proxy.

So if they tell you that the Brexit is bad fot the Brits, they lie. It's bad for Fritz, not the Brits!

Oh, and regarding to the Russians: yes, in Germany the press is 100% opposing Russia. very much as the Germans were a 100% against Yews. Just remember what they did: they kicked the Yews out or gased them, and just took over their property, banks and bussines'es.

They wanted to get rid of the competition, that all there is to it!

 

Mark my words: if the Brexit fails... Europe falls... not the EU - they can go to hell where they belong - , I mean Europe!

[2prnot2p 1,066]

I'm getting the sense that many UKers share my distaste for Germany.  Let me assure you of one thing.  If they ever tried to ramp up their military, I truly believe that the sane world would intervene.  (Please don't tell me that they are already doing this!)

My mom died in 2003.  She always held the belief that they will rise up again and repeat their actions of the two world wars.   Man, just the thought of that is horrifying.  They have always come across to me as having an air of superiority about them.  I don't consider myself a bigot  However, as my earlier post explains, I do have my reasons for feeling this way.  I'm just being honest.  I hope that's still allowed in our PC world.

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by 2prnot2p
Grammar edit

[likesToLick 10,216]

16 hours ago, owlman76 said:

A vote is a vote, the majority, however small, expressed it's feelings

Actually,  37% is a minority.  You can't get around that.  Only 37% ever wanted to leave, and the number is much less now.

16 hours ago, owlman76 said:

that we should have another vote, well we should not! 

What are you afraid of?  Democracy?  Why shouldn't the people be allowed to choose?   You conned them with a lot of contemptible lies,  and now they know better.  Is that why you don't want them to have a say?

17 hours ago, owlman76 said:

They, are trying to tell us we may not be able to travel abroad when we leave the EU! how do you think the likes of Spain are going to react when they see their earnings cut because the Brit tourists are not coming any more?

Many, many of you will not be able to travel abroad,  not because other countries don't want them,  but because they will be unable to get health insurance.  Maybe that won't matter to you,  but the older folks who can't visit their grandchildren will hate you forever.

 

[likesToLick 10,216]

8 hours ago, WantonLee said:

the entire British media is under full german control - either directly or by proxy

Rupert Murdoch is an American, and he controls a lot of the UK media.

[spywareonya 37,962]

I would like for UK to stay, in order to make its protest heard. If they leave, nobody will care of their opinions, which are right. They will be heard only if they stay. But if I'm wrong, then I think it's ok they leave. I mean, my goal is to have a world with no boundaries, but this should not be confused with a world where most people live like hippies while a government (foreign or internal) enslaves them while they are "too happy to notice".

I think the way to expose all of this is to stay and speak. But if really the only way to rock consciousnesses is to leave, then it would be constructive to leave.

 

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 8:01 AM, F.W said:

"patriotism"

I think that an even better definition is to "keep safe civilization conquests"

I mean, let me try to explain, if UK was reached by a huge migration wave whose members were all good working guys, of similar Heritage both of culture and spirit, it wouldn't have bothered you at all, isn't it?

What I think disturbs you is this, let me quote your first powerful post:

 

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 7:39 AM, F.W said:

Millions of people of alien heritage,to whom a Michaelangelo statue in Rome,represents somewhere to take a crap behind kind of.Also it has come to pass,that many of these "refugees" are,in fact,ISIS terrorists.The 2015 Bataclan outrage was done by mainly these "refugees".Getting into Europe,then unleashing carnage on the streets of what was once the "city of light".Now,its more like the city of sleeping bags,thousands of these people camping on Parisian boulevards etc.Also there have been hundreds of other incidents involving these feral "refugees",rapes,murders,and other terrorist outrages

 

 

I can only agree with you. Left or right (which have different meanings in different nations, in the East Europe,  Right is for economical growth through the EU, Left is for Independence), what you wrote is true.

My only hope is that a period of forced cohexistence with these people will expose what doesn't work, in time leading us to a better integration, not submission. If this is REALLY impossible, then we would have to part way, and all nations will reflect about why the UK left and maybe this would rock consciousnesses too...

[likesToLick 10,216]

On 12/18/2018 at 7:51 PM, owlman76 said:

Learn your maths, if 34% voted remain and 37% voted leave, then the majority won on the day.

37% voted leave 63% did not.  It's quite clear what the majority wanted - no change.

Did you know that only a minority of Germans ever voted for Hitler's Nazis?    I wonder if it was more than 37% or not?    That turned out well didn't it?  Perhaps the will of the people would have been better. 

[spywareonya 37,962]

3 hours ago, owlman76 said:

The main problem is Britain is an island and shares no land borders

And this, in my opinion, led Brits to a psychological dead end, with in psychology is called "overcompensating egotism", which, by chance, is the same psychology of the Deutch, which ad been Brit's counterpart for ages, their sworn enemies, and their only peer for what refers endevour and willpower

 

"Overcompensating egotism" is often misinterpreted as selfishness or narcissism, but is actually its opposite. An overcompensating egotist is a man (or a people in this case) who accepted so deeply that nothing is for granted, that they became brave, fierce, committed to perfection, not as a matter of arrogance, the exact opposite, because they are so humile and courageous that they don't expect life to be kind to them like a parent to a child.

 

What is the problem with all of this? The problem is that, indeed because of this intensity and responsible nature, OEs (Overcompensating Egotist) tend to win. ALWAYS. They righteously fall in love with the perfection they created, and eventually lose sight with "down-to-Earth" lifestyle, common to "less-excellent-people", who are used to unjustice and consider it normal.

 

Where I live, 90% of residents are foreign. Even street signal are more common in foreign languages than my native one. Bus, trains, you feel teleported in Egypt or China slums. Criminality is everywhere

(while waiting for green light, people on motorbikes burn driver's hands leaning out of the car window with cigarettes while their buddy in the bike's backseat pour oil on the same hand, and when the driver get his hand back out of pain, the oil makes it slippery, and the bike's driver can grab the car's driver's hand and make his swatch to slip down the wrist and remain in the hand of the thief, who then drive away while it's still red light on and disappear in the traffic)

and fascist police beat and mistreat them (and native residents alike) everytime possible.

 

The point is that we consider it normal, so the politic of EU about immigrants doesn't scare us that much. We never had the chance to fall in love with a perfect nation, so we are not that interested in defending its lore. Our culture will be immortal, like all cultural conquests. But daily life… we serenely accept it to be hell. I won't disclose where I live, but believe me, Rome, Bucarest, Paris, even Berlin if you step away from the main streets, is thug life.

 

If Brits think they can avoid this downfall forever, then leave EU. I sincerily think that this hell is a sociological age, to be surpassed when people are fed with. But I don't think it can be resisted. If immigrants are "conquering" us is because they are more active and willing to toil, both in lawful work (mainly chinese) and in unlawful activities (mainly east europe and africa). We europeans are like retired people, in love with what we created but unwilling to toil like they do. Feeling safe down the streets, going to places populated only by pleasurable persons… I consider it so impossible to result even uninteresting, and though I can understand why Brits want to protect UK from all of this, I think it is more a matter of sociological ages, we were to learn that other countries toils harder than us (China is starting to produce top quality technology, and India is kicking everybody's asses, it's just that The Big ones don't talk about) and face the fact we expected our superior heritage to allow us playing Zeus on its mountain, while mortals accepted their role passively.

 

No, this immigration is like tidal re-flux. The point is not to protect, but to let it happen, and THEN take matter into one's hands. Like for example having the guts to differentiate laws between immigrants and natives, and I know this sounds like the fascism I oppose being an anarchist, but I also never said I consider 8 billions people to be fine living contemporarely on Earth, and I also am a Witch before being an anarchist, and Witches are hierarchical.

 

I think you shouldn't leave, and instead you should speak loud your mind. But if Bruxelles don't listen, then go, to rock consciousnesses. But don't go for the sake of isolation. Isolation is something evolution discarded. We are piss fetishists because we like to enter the intimacy of a woman while she pees. Everything secluded invites exploration somehow.

 

I understand your reasons. But decrease the zoom and see the bigger picture.

[Scot_Lover 1,877]

I don't know much about Brexit, only what we see on the news, and we gather that the UK is now in a world of hurt.

Whats The Queen say about this, what's The Monachy's position? Are they just going to sit in their castles and do nothing?  If they want to jump ship, I'm pretty sure we would have them. (Maigh said you can keep Camilla, though)

Air travel between our countries has already changed, Dubai has now become the hub for the rest of Europe, you fly from Australia to Dubai, stay one night, and any destination in Europe is a flat $99 AUD. This is cheaper than going to London, and jumping Eurostar to Paris. Another thing, there are mutterings that Eurostar's plug will be pulled, one of the worlds impressive engineering marvels will basically be shut down. Australian tourists have also been warned that we are no longer able to travel under the conditions we are used to. All passports now must have at least 6 months minimum before expiry, prior to travel. Not a difficult thing to arrange, but changes are happening.

Australia is also having an immigration problem, refugees won't learn the language, won't abide our laws and way of life, want Sharia Law implemented, blah blah blah, but we are fighting back. Current intake is 190,000 per year, gubermint want this reduced to 30,000, and also want highly skilled people for this 30,000, doctors, engineers, professional people. Not rabble from the streets.

Like I said, I don't know much about Brexit. If it was such a problem, why did the UK join in the first place when the country knew they would get the crappy end of the stick? Not even Maigh could help me with this, and she lived there most of her life.

 

[WantonLee 861]

@ owlman76 and Scot_Lover:

Divide and rule - thats the answer.

The people who are in charge (not the politicians, who are only the sock-puppets of the people in charge) NEED the population to be divided. Thats why all those young, male refugees are comming to Europe. No one in charge thinks they need to be helped, because they have no empathy. People with empathy NEVER raise to the top. Yes, a lot of people are fleeing the war(s) in the middle east, but I am beginning to doubt that we are ever going to see them - the will NOT be send to Europe, because their presence is no help to the people in charge here.

The ones in charge just send over the refugees that they know are going to cause problems.

Because... as long as we down here fight each other... we won't fight them.

 

Also, it's very practical - you always have some terrorist ready at your (that is: the people in charge's) service. All the people who committed terrorist attacks were under close survailiance... sometimes VERY close.

Remember when the French were protesting for a better living (it was not about raised taxes on fuel - that was just the straw that broke the camel's back)... then, in Strasbourg a terrorist attack happened... and you haven't heard of the protests since. How conveniently timed.... wasn't it? I wonder where he got that revolver and ammunition from.... and.... I also wonder cui bono'd.... 😉

 

Europe is going to burn. Because the people in charge are getting cold and they need a fire to warm themselves.

If our future will be a bright one... I can only hope it will be the brightness of nuclear explosions, because it at least is a mercyfull, quick death (provided you are close enough, which I hope to be).

[2prnot2p 1,066]

In hindsight, I would never have started this topic.  I mean it.  I never intended to start such a hurricane.  To me, it's totally crazy.  I'm so very sorry to all of you.  I thought we could have some discussion in a polite way.  But, as the old adage says, "Politics is not a good subject to bring up."

In closing, I'll say one last thing.  And if there are those who hate me for it, so be it.  We, here in the USA, have a leader who is a pig!  Plain and simple.  He is a liar and an egomaniac.  And those are his good traits!  Enough said.

Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 3 million!  I did not vote for her.  I did not vote at all. It was the first time in my life that I did not vote for the president.  If Bernie would have been the candidate, I'd have voted for him.  Anyway...

Trump's election win and what's going on in the UK and other parts of the world is SCARY!!!  Patriotism, i.e., Nationalism, is BAD!!!

Finally, REMEMBER WHERE THAT IDEOLOGY LED IN WW2!!!

I'm done on this topic.

[likesToLick 10,216]

23 hours ago, owlman76 said:

NO! in your original comment you stated that "37% voted leave, 34% voted stay, and the remainder did not vote" you cannot decide for yourself that because someone didn't vote that they automatically wanted to stay, all it means is they couldn't be arsed voting, it really is that simple, or it is to anyone with any intelligence!

If you really believed that,  you wouldn't be so scared to let the people have a say.  The only reason you want to deny them a vote now is because you know you would lose.

Put your money where your mouth is.  People's vote now!  No change without an absolute majority.

[spywareonya 37,962]

@owlman76

 I read it all carefully

And I understand

But you are confirming my hypothesis without even noticing

The point is not immigrants, is hypocrisy

And if you expell them because your government cannot find the guts to give you the right to defend yourself, then the problem is the government, not immigrants

Just imagine a nation where immigrants are punished by law more heavily than natives, where their every act of bossiness is immediately sanctioned, where they are told they are expected to feel and act like guests and not conquerors, such a nation would have NOTHING to fear from them

 

I meant that when I said that we are retired

We lost the courage to say "Everybody wants a square inch of soil, but since we are too many, some will be discarded", we feel sorry for this and it's good that we feel, because it shows we still have a heart, but we also must face the fact, we are too many on Earth, and Europe cannot host them all. The way to solve all of this is to make war against criminals forcing these people to leave their homecountries, so they'll have no reasons to come here anymore, and if they still want to do, they'll be monitored and not treated like refugees, which they would NOT be anymore, but like visitors, and they would act as such

 

Do you really want to know why they conquer us?

Because they are not ashamed to take whatever passes through their hands. They take, they take, they take without shame. When we were like them, we built Roman Empire, Alexander the Great conquered Asia and half of Europe, and we discovered America and Australia.

 

We have since become ashamed of the power we wield, and that is good, because a superficial attitude to the use of power makes people heartless, but we exaggerated in playing the part of the spineless householder. We are letting them conquer us because we feel guilty of what we have, what we have conquered.

I say: let's simply stop to be ashamed. Let's stop treating them like a defeated enemy (which they are, if we consider the strife for global economical conquest) toward which we feel guilty, and start them again to consider them individuals, like us, and say "I was here first, and if there is no room for everybody, I stay and you go"

 

THIS is what we need. Not national fragmentation. But the rigid defense of what we have. We MUST not be heartless, but we must also realize there is no guilt in having better lives than them, and that if their nations sucks, maybe it's because their inhabitants are spineless, and only flee. When a criminal government took over many african and middle east nations, they fled to Europe. When a criminal government took over France, they BEHEADED it. And when a criminal government took over ALL EUROPE, we started a WORLD WAR to stop it. We earned our world and we must not be ashamed to defend it. We are better than them not because we are white or we are european (my occult current is mainly a n African/Indian one so is Southern and Eastern, and mainly black skinned, as I consider black skinned people to have a sincerity europeans lack), but only because as NATIONS (not ethnies or cultures!!!) we FOUGHT AND WE WON.

So now we owe the world NOTHING.

I like to accept them, but I want them to know who's in command, and I think it can be done without cruelty

[F.W 5,734]

I guess i would be called an extreme Brexiteer..I other words,i voted to leave the EU.

In some circles that makes me "extreme".I will always resent the idea that any European,who we have either liberated from each other at some point,or militarily defeated has ANY kind of say in the running of Britain.Beyond any kind of normal trade agreements,or standards.We must again have the ability to decide for ourselves who we do or dont allow into the country,and not some dipsomaniac Belgian guy.

Im not remotely concerned about any trade,or effects,if any upon the country.Freedom first,riches second.

I will vote leave,if a hundred referendums.

Give me liberty,or give me death.

[spywareonya 37,962]

2 hours ago, owlman76 said:

@spywareonya, I,m not in any way saying that immigrants should be punished more severely than anyone else, merely that they should face the same punishments! Our country has gotten so bad at the moment that the only people who do suffer, are the native's, everyone else has some sort of right that protects them, ethnicity, religious persuasion, colour, etc. Things really have to change.

Then force your government to realize this

If it is so hypocrite, this time those revealing the problems are the immigrants. Who will be next time? A minor political group? A minor tribe of people who do not like the existence of a "United Kingdom" and wants Scotland, Britain, and all Others to be parted once again?

 

I understand what you denounce. The solution lies in better control of the newcomers, not in trying to prevent them from popping up. I can be up for Brexit if this will make governments understand the problem, but there will ALWAYS be somebody trying to modify the status quo, and if these modifications would for the worse, government must have the guts to take matters into its own hands

Reflect on that

 

1 hour ago, owlman76 said:

There is the problem, money, I'm sick to death of hearing wealthy businessmen whine on about how they'll lose money if they can't employ Poles, or Lithuanians, etc. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but since we have the 'minimum wage' over here, which is a legal requirement as far as I am aware, then how is it cheaper to employ foreigners than our own? Plus, we have loads of bone idle youngsters who have no intention of working, most of whom have very large tv's, and expensive tv and internet packages. The governemnt has plans to reduce the amount of benefits from a maximum of over £30k a year, to less than £20k a year!

There are families who are working that earn less than £20k a year, there are also people claiming benefits who've never worked, and hence never paid into the system, and they are getting more than those who've worked for 20 or 30 years and then come out of work, how is that right? It isn't, Why should a family on the dole have a better lifestyle than a family who work ? they shouldn't!

They've increased the retirement age because there is not enough money in the pot, well, if we got everyone over 60 to retire and made those who make a career out of the benefits system actually work, then it would balance out.If Mr A, would get £60 a week pension, and young Mr B gets £60 a week dole money, then if A retires and B takes up his job, what is the difference, non, it balances out. 

 

 

It sounds so silly. Why they give money to people that doesn't work?

I can understand enough to survive, but to thrive?!

 

2 hours ago, F.W said:

Give me liberty,or give me Death

I am afraid I am missing the point?

I am sad the thread creator thought he "stirred a storm" as to me this thread is heart touching and full of great men speaking their mind, but I really don't understand who is, in your opinion, the enemy?

I thought I got that you hated to have your economical system abused by the irresponsible Bruxelles policies, but then you wrote

2 hours ago, F.W said:

Im not remotely concerned about any trade,or effects,if any upon the country

so this means I got it wrong in the beginning, and you were trying to expose a different and maybe deeper subject…?

[steve25805 126,149]

I voted to Remain.

The EU on the whole is very good for us economically. We do nearly half our trade with it and it is by far our nearest neighbour. Since voting to leave, large companies have not been investing here, many are preparing to leave us with the potential loss of thousands of jobs. We have the lowest growth rate in the EU now almost, and the value of the pound is falling and the stock market plunging. If we just crash out with no transitional arrangements it could be disastrous.

I also do not believe that as human beings we are any different to Germans or Frenchmen or Italians or Latvians or Poles or Spaniards. We all love, laugh, work, love our families. And yet historically we spent centuries fighting and killing each other. And for what? I like the notion of us all living together as one, able to go where we want and live where we want. And we meet many great people that way. My very best friend on this earth is a young lady from Latvia and I would not hesitate to lay down my life to save her if it ever came to that. I'd marry her if that's what it took for her to stay. As a person she is a far better human being than most I have met and an asset to this country. What do we gain by stopping hard working people like her from coming here?

Freedom of movement works both ways. Restrict the freedom of Europeans to come and live here and work here to silence the rantings of a few Alf Garnett types, and we immediately give up our own freedom to go and live wherever we want in Europe. A vote for Brexit is a vote against our own freedom to go wherever we want in Europe for however long we want. We have voted against our own freedom of movement!

I should also point out that whilst not every Brexiteer is a racist, every racist is a Brexiteer. I do understand legitimate concerns re immigration, but the problem was employers being allowed to exploit cheap European labour to keep wages down whilst landlords were allowed to exploit their numbers by driving rents up, with nowhere near enough new housing being built. These issues should have been dealt with instead of allowing the populist right with their dog whistle racism to blame it all on the immigrants.

Demographically, the old tended to vote for Brexit whilst the young voted to Remain. Those with the biggest stakes in the future and the most to lose have been shafted by the coffin dodgers, many of whom voted on the strength of ridiculous assumptions and premises. Some still look at Europe through the prism of 1940, imagining Europe to be a German plot to achieve world domination  by stealth and are voting for freedom from this false reality. Others think we can return to the 1950s. Far too many older people were voting for the 1950s as some kind of mythical past. Others seemed to be voting as if they were still fighting World War 2. Very sad. Because on the basis of such bullshit, when they have little future themselves, they have sold the futures of the younger generations down the river.

As for the Leave campaign itself, it took money from Russia, spent illegally large sums of money, repeatedly lied to us - "They need us more than we need them" "350 million a week to the NHS"  "A best of both worlds deal is there for the taking" - and all that bollocks. With dog-whistle racism a constant undertone.

And the whole thing was foisted upon us just to solve internal differences in the Tory party. The ultimate unpatriotic example of putting party before country.

[steve25805 126,149]

16 hours ago, F.W said:

 

Give me liberty,or give me death.

You have wilfully surrendered your liberty to travel and live freely anywhere in Europe. You have given up your freedom of movement.

Some liberty!

Give me thoughtful cosmopolitanism over knee-jerk Little Englanderism any day.

 

[steve25805 126,149]

17 hours ago, owlman76 said:

Not at all,but we had a vote and that is the end of it, if we have a revote on this, where does it end? a new go every time someone gets an election result they don't like.

No. We voted on lies and bullshit before, and were promised moonbeams and fairy dust.

Now we know exactly what the final deal looks like and that the only alternatives to it are a no deal crash out or Remain. So we know the facts now. So a final vote on the actual facts is something of a moral imperative.

 

[steve25805 126,149]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:48 PM, owlman76 said:

…..most migrants come here to claim benefits, cheat, steal, rape and murder.

This whole thing is being led by Germany in an attempt to control Europe, they keep going on about Putin and Russia being hell bent on ruling Europe, exactly what is the difference between his alleged ideals and those of Germany.

The first paragraph I quoted is a blatant and scurrilous LIE! Because most actually come here to work and work fucking hard. A statistical fact.

Your second paragraph is a laughable example of the mindset I mentioned in an earlier post whereby some still think they are fighting World War 2, lol. Viewing things not as they are but through the distorting lens of 1940. Perhaps if we equipped the RAF with spitfires and sent Bomber Harris over the Ruhr again, we'd be on the correct path? Fighting the good fight?