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Pete2304

So.....gun control

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Egwalrus    590

You continually defend the so called religion of peace (which believes that rape is fine, and women should be forced to cover themselves and want the good people of the world to be disarmed and defensless against those savages

I stand by my words

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Pete2304    34

A very small minority of Muslims have decided to follow their own extreme interpretation of a book that is two thousand years old. All I have ever said is that maybe, not all Muslims follow that interpretation.

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peedude    110

Guns aren't really the issue. Of 12000 accidental deaths in the US, 600 are due to guns. Numerous other causes far exceed firearms as causes of preventable deaths, such as automobiles (haven't heard much about banning them, or even restricting their use)

Sales of firearms are trending upward and yet overall firearm related deaths are decreasing. Do some research.

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Pete2304    34

I will start at the beginning for you. Way back when muskets were the only form of firearm, the second amendment was passed, allowing American citizens to bear arms in case they had to fight back against a tyrannical government. Now, that is no longer a valid concern today, I'm sure you would agree?

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peedude    110

Fully disagree, Pete. An unarmed populace is one owned by it's government. Government power should be limited by the people, as is the intention of the Second Amendment.

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Pete2304    34

Ridiculous. When the second amendment was passed, it was at a time when the central government was much less in control than it is today. Local government and law enforcement was far more of a factor because you couldn't just pick up a phone and deal with an issue in Alabama whilst sat in Washington.

How on earth does your owning a gun have any effect whatsoever on your feeling more or less "owned" as you put it by your (elected I might add) government? What are you going to do if you don't like the next president, march into the White House and shoot him or her? No, of course you aren't.

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peedude    110

The Second Amendment was put in place to protect against a tyrannical government, present and future. Additionally, you bring about a good point. Law enforcement by its nature is reactionary, and even the quickest agencies with the fastest response times are minutes away when seconds count. Having the means to protect yourself/deal with the threat is a good thing.

You're correct, I have no intention of shooting political leaders with whom I disagree. However, I believe an armed populace is a safe one, and fully believe the Second Amendment provides for that. My ownership of a gun means that my property and rights cannot be violated without a significant battle.

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garman1    3

I knew this would stir up a hornets nest and I was right lol........ I live in australia and we haven't had a lot of "mass shootings" but of those most had illegally obtained firearms and not bought thrue a gun shop etc. So we get back to, criminals can get illegal weapons easy and NOW in australia it is bloody hard to buy and keep a rifle. I used to be a prolific shooter, owning multiple long guns of varying calibres from .22 to 303 and shotguns, I had to hand them all in, some which were handed down to me from my father and uncles. I believe in having to be checked out before obtaining a gun/rifle as I don't have any drama about it, the same with a waiting period. Even having to lock them up is a good idea, bad for me as I rent and bolting them down is hard to get permission for.

I have been in a situation when i was 12 were we had 25 people out the front of our house wanting to come in a bash us all up as we helped one young guy who they were beating up.... i grabbed a 12 gauge shotgun and pointed it through our screen door at the "leader" who said he was going to kill me, we both looked down the barrel and at that point he changed his mind, if i didn't have a weapon that night he was coming through our door, in this case my shotgun saved myself, my mum and my dad and the guy they beat up. These days in australia if your forced into the kitchen and threatened with death you can't even stab the guy with a knife until you find out if he is going to use his fists first as you can't use more force than him!!!!!!!!!! I like the "castle" rule in the usa, if you break into my house and you won't walk out, police will take you out on a stretcher.

Having fully automatic weapons, ar15's fully automatic assault refile seems not necessary to me and there is a proposed change to the law in that these weapons will only have 10 shot mags, rather that 30 shot, I personally don't see the need to have assault weapons but that is my thought only.

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garman1    3

If i were in a cinema and you had a gunman come in and start shooting everyone, i would love to be in an area where everyone carried (open or concealed) guns as yep some people will die that is for sure BUT i can guarantee that someone would empty a clip into this bastard rather than being a sheep waiting to be killed. I don't want to really get into any heated debate over this as it would be a never ending argument but I wanted to put forward my thoughts based on the fact that I am (was) as shooter and I live in australia and my thoughts on the law changes here in australia. There seems to be a cultural change over the years where people are quicker to anger than that of past generations, to go shooting I carried my rifle on the back of my motorbike and no one gave me a second look, nowadays I would have a swat team over me....................... again just my thoughts.........cheers from aus.

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Pete2304    34

Peedude, the whole point I've made from the very beginning when I was primarily having this debate with Egwalrus is that, should you make guns illegal, introduce say a mandatory 5-10 year prison sentence for carrying one then over time, guns would dissapear. I don't need a gun to defend my house because if someone were to break in, it's highly unlikely they would be armed with a gun.

Reason for this is that a gun on the black market is going to cost you somewhere between £10-20k and you wouldn't buy one to go and steal a tv from someone's house.

It would take a huge amount of guts from one generation to ride the tide as it were while the criminals kept theirs bit over time they would be arrested and sent to prison and eventually, they would stop carrying guns as a habit.

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Pete2304    34

Garman, I understand the point you are making and yes maybe you did scare away a group of troublemakers by you having a gun but here's a thought......were guns as easily available as they were in the states, would those troublemakers not have been a lot more likely to cause you serious injury or worse?

As for the cinema example, again as I've said all along, making weapons as difficult as possible to get hold of will never account for every idiot out there but it will certainly stop a lot of angry, spur of the moment shootings like we see in the States on an almost daily basis.

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garman1    3

Pete, I think you have nailed it on the head, there are spur of the moment shootings, I do believe we seem to succumb to anger quicker than when i was young, what is to blame i don't know. Get cut off in traffic back years ago no big deal really, now it can cause huge road rage incidents. Ultimately its not the gun/car/knife/screwdriver/axe/machete that causes the problems, it is the idiot holding or using it that causes the problem. Is our lifestyle too busy nowadays with no time to spare and every second counts ?? and if someone who interferes with those seconds should suffer vengeance, I don't know but outlawing guns won't stop people killing people, they will just find another way. look at nice in france....................You can't ban trucks End of rant lol

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Pete2304    34

No, outlawing guns won't stop people being killed you're quite right. I just think that why not take away the opportunity. A few years back I cut someone up at a roundabout. It was completely my fault, I was on the phone to my boss and I wasn't concentrating and I nearly caused an accident. The bloke in the other car went bloody mad, he literally chased me for two miles until I dived down a side street his van wouldn't have fit down. I'm not a big bloke but he certainly was but God knows what the outcome would have been had he had a gun.

People intent on causing harm like the disgraceful scenes we saw last night will get hold of weapons, sod all we can do about it but to stop the impulse actions of a hormonal teenager who's been kicked out of college and goes back two hours later with his dad's loaded gun that was sat in the garage, just take the guns away.

The story a few weeks back of a woman shot dead in her own car by her 3 year old who had found a loaded gun on the backseat of the car left by the woman's boyfriend. That's just not something that would happen in a society where guns aren't normal. I've only ever fired a weapon whilst I was in basic training for the Air Force. I've worked in some bloody rough places whilst I was managing betting shops and have been help up three times but not once was a gun involved.

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peedude    110

Pete, I appreciate your responses and the debate we've been having. At the end of the day, we all have our own values. My personal belief is that guns are not really an issue, but commonly used as a scapegoat for poor human behavior. Additionally, I see so many other preventable causes of death that cause hundreds of times more deaths than guns.

I certainly respect your values regarding the issue as well, and I feel that, while it can be enjoyable and educational to debate these issues, I'm not going to change your mind, nor will you change mine on this topic.

Of note, the attacker in Nice, France used a truck to kill 80 some people, no gun necessary.

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garman1    3

Leaving a gun on the backseat of a car reflects on the person, i wonder what beliefs these people hold and how the child will be raised, again in our house we had lots of weapons but none were left lying around siting on the floor or on coffee tables etc, as peedude said poor human behaviour is causing a lot of problems world wide. Our society is becoming one of anger first and reasoning second. I wonder what the world will be like for my grand children and how much different it will be from my childhood................................?????????

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Scot_Lover    502

This a pic from the "buy back" the government had here. Some of my guns ended up like this. A Henry's .50 cal, along with ammunition making equipment was sold to an American collector. I'll leave this here for you to cry over, lol.

Every State and every major city, basically where there was a manned police station had, piles of weapons like this.

We had had enough, and this went relatively easily, little or no protest was made at the time.

These were made into things, nuts and bolts, razor blades, you know, harmless everyday items.

It worked here, and in any other country that did the same.

image.jpeg.7ead9a925cb9509303d120718d745b49.jpeg

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Pete2304    34

Peedude, I shall leave our conversation there then as I fully understand it may not be a long winded debate you wish to get into and that is fair enough. For what it's worth, I reciprocate the respect of everyone being fully entitled to their own opinions. I certainly wouldn't try and change your mind, as I said to Egwalrus, I realised I would never change his mind. To be honest, partly, I'm fascinated as to how someone could support the idea of an armed population because it's not something I can really comprehend. I do though realise that having not lived in the US there are probably details I don't understand. Anyways, thanks for the sensible and polite replies but I will leave our conversation there.

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Pete2304    34

Garman, you are right, that reflected hugely on the parents. The woman concerned had been dating a drug dealer and it was his gun that had been left in the back of the car. sadly, no doubt her child would have grown up under her care to be a less than productive member of society but I feel that without such wide availability of weapons this simply wouldn't have happened.

Yes, the dreadful events in Nice involved a truck being used but there were also several firearms found in the cab and reports have been made that some deaths were as a result of shots fired by those inside the truck. People of such intent, backed by Isis are able to get hold of weapons because they have the financial backing to do so and God knows how we are going to put a stop to that.

My issue, all along has been the crimes carried out in the spur of the moment. I'm pretty bloody sure I wouldn't be sat here typing this had my ex wife had access to a gun sat in a cupboard somewhere in the house. I say this tongue in cheek, but honestly, I couldn't be 100 percent certain that her temper after heavy drinking wouldn't have resulted in a serious incident. The point being that for many domestic incidents, the presence of a gun used in temper has caused injuries and death which simply wouldn't have occurred otherwise.

The pic that Scot lover posted proves the point that some if not all weapons would be handed in, especially if there was a financial reward. I've said before, it would take one or two generations a big set of balls, but it could be done.

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Brutus    412

I'm not a liberal or a conservative or an independent but I am an American, so here is my take. Is America an especially violent country? Yes. Our murder rates are aided by the ease of getting a gun but the true reason for our insane murder rate is due to our culture. We are in general a short tempered, entitled, individualist culture and have a lot of nut-cases that have no business owning anything more dangerous than a butter knife. Other developed nations tend to be collectivist cultures and therefore are genuinely more concerned about the well being of their neighbor. America is the wild west. Live hard, die hard, literally. It's also the reason opponents of our recent healthcare overhaul were fiercely against it. The whole concept of everyone pays for everyone to lower costs for all is a collectivist minded idea that doesn't sit well with American culture even though we already have socialist type laws and policies that gun lovers don't complain about, like traffic rules, FDA regulations and tax funded education for our kids to name a few.

Guns are a huge market here. We also supply arms oversees and profit from that. Many of our powerful corporations are affiliated with the NRA and have the financial means to crush such laws dead. Our news media and politicians make it worse by stirring the pot to heat up everyone's temper. Leftists say gun control and Conservatives say more guns to stop crazed gunmen. No matter how many school children are slaughtered over and over, gun supporters don't care and say more guns and teachers with guns would've stopped the gunman. It's a never ending cycle of more guns to combat crazed gunmen. With our generally violent fuck you attitude, giving guns to everybody would mean shootings everywhere all the time and society would collapse under never ending civil war.

It's hard to say if strict gun laws would lower our crime rates. If you regulate our guns tightly, gun activists will go ape-shit and more murders will happen from their panic that the government is coming to take their freedom and the military would have to get involved and impose martial law. Now we're suddenly under communism. Then the heavy criminal element present here means that criminals will have guns illegally and a huge underground non-taxed gun market will emerge and flourish and law abiding citizens will be vulnerable or illegal owners. It's a situation of being screwed either way. Successful gun regulation would require a massive culture reset from the top down and there would be serious society threatening growing pains. 

Personally I believe that you should be able to own 1 pistol per floor of your home for self defense as well as 2 bolt action rifles if you hunt. That's it, nobody has any business with assault rifles that can drop 30 people in seconds. And you should be subject to extensive background checks as well as mental assessment going back 2 generations and an analysis of who your peers are. If you want to collect guns too bad. We all want some things that we can't get.

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Brutus    412
On 10/23/2017 at 1:05 PM, fannywatcher said:

I like firearms,but i do think allowing private citizens to own live weapons is the worst idea ever.

I don't know if you are American but the founders of America gave citizens the right to arms mainly as a last line of defense against a tyrannical government. It was either brilliant insight or a great mistake for them to assume that a government can and will take advantage of its citizens if they cannot defend against it. It was a good idea, the problem is these days the government has the full weaponry of our advanced military. There doesn't seem to be much a community of people with M16's and SPAS 12's  can do against tanks, nukes and drones if things come to that point but still at the very least, it allows us to legally have a means of lethal defense against an intruder or crazed gunman threatening our own lives. I wouldn't want to be prohibited from arming myself against the law-breakers that will have weapons regardless. 

My original post here is a bit out of touch with how I feel now. I find myself leaning more to gun rights, simply because it seems like the government wants to disarm us, for no benefit of our own. I notice how the news here fixates on mass shootings, and then like clockwork, the politicians start the gun law discussion yet again. It just feels too staged, I might say. These same politicians who condemn guns never go anywhere without armed security themselves. They also never speak of disarming police either. So in their view, only those in power should have firearms and not all that are citizens. Hell of a double standard. Talk about being a hypocrite. The noticeable tightening of free speech in the west is another thing that inches me further into questioning their words. I feel like the push to disarm the people is from the same school of thought. I do still however, maintain that certain people have no business with firearms and that our murder sprees are a serious problem. Background checks are a joke here. 

Anyway, that's all for my little rant. All in friendly conversation.:12_slight_smile:

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UnabashedUser    489

Being from West Texas, there's no such thing as a friendly discussion about infringements of a god-granted right of self defense' The LESS government is the  best.

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owlman76    255

A man once said, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" , however having a gun makes it so much easier, if you talk to troops who've seen active service, a lot of them will tell you that it's easier to shoot someone at 200 yards with a rifle, than stab them with a knife. The distance makes it much less personal, you don't actually have to get close to the victim.

The UK is a microcosm of the American way of life, what happens in the US usually happens here 20 or so years later, yet people are slow to learn lessons from what happens there, before it happens here.

America has had gang problems since the 1970's, Crips, Bloods, et al, virtually every city has at least a couple of gangs, often fighting over trivial things, in the UK we had no such problems, OK in the 60's we had criminal gangs, or firms as they were known, the Krays, the Richardsons, to name but two. These were gangs who by and large fought amongst themselves, usually over criminal issues, if you weren't in the gang, then you weren't involved and therefore safe, women and children were not touched and in many ways these guys actually kept crime down. If you lived in London in the 60's and mugged an old lady or hurt a child, then god help you if the Krays found out about it!

Now unfortunately we have loads of kids running around in street gangs, dealing drugs, robbing people, committing rapes, it's getting out of control, they have no respect or fear of anyone. It's pathetic really, young white kids walking around talking like they are black, "innit, know what I mean bruv", they are getting hold of guns and shooting each other for fun, sadly all too often innocent members of the public get killed or hurt by being caught up in all this.

There have been lots of cases where an innocent person going about their lawful business has been shot and killed in a case of mistaken identity, currently over here we have a trend of revenge crimes, a lot of them against innocent people, what's going wrong?

A young girl, late teens, her only crime was to be going out with a member of one gang, who had disrespected a member of a rival gang, they were unable to avenge this perceived insult against him directly, so this is what happened. One day while this young lady was out, she was captured by members of the rival gang, and taken to an unknown location, she was then subjected to multiple acts of rape, and various other forms of degrading sexual abuse, all this was videoed, and sent to her boyfriend!

I have never believed in the need for ordinary members of the public to carry firearms, however now my views are changing, in the course of my life, I have been stabbed twice, and shot at twice, all while going about my legitimate business. Ask most gang members why they carry guns, and you'll usually get the same answer, for respect.Now correct me if I' m wrong here, but not upsetting some nutter who happens to have a gun pointed at you, is nothing to do with respect, it's a perfectly sensible survival technique!

Would the same bloke, who just happens to be pointing the gun at you attempt to rob you without it? Probably not, would you hand over your wallet to an unarmed stranger, just because he asked for it, again probably not, in fact you'd probably tell him to sod off, and give him a thump.NO!The simple fact is that most of these people are cowards,without a weapon they are nothing, I think that over here when you look at it these gangs go for the soft option, most of our police forces are not allowed to chase motorbikes, so we now have gangs in most major cities, who, ride around on stolen mopeds, committing various criminal acts, they know they can get away with it because the police are not allowed to chase them. If however tactics changed, and a few were killed, being chased by the police, then maybe they'd stop doing it, the same with guns, if they knew that by firing at someone there was a good chance the intended victim would return fire, and possibly be a better shot then maybe they'd think twice. I don't think over here that there is any place for rifles,  we don't hunt like you guys do in the USA, but I think it is time we had a rethink on allowing people to own a handgun.

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Brutus    412
On 10/31/2017 at 3:52 AM, owlman76 said:

Would the same bloke, who just happens to be pointing the gun at you attempt to rob you without it? Probably not, would you hand over your wallet to an unarmed stranger, just because he asked for it, again probably not, in fact you'd probably tell him to sod off, and give him a thump.NO!The simple fact is that most of these people are cowards,without a weapon they are nothing, I think that over here when you look at it these gangs go for the soft option, most of our police forces are not allowed to chase motorbikes, so we now have gangs in most major cities, who, ride around on stolen mopeds, committing various criminal acts, they know they can get away with it because the police are not allowed to chase them. If however tactics changed, and a few were killed, being chased by the police, then maybe they'd stop doing it, the same with guns, if they knew that by firing at someone there was a good chance the intended victim would return fire, and possibly be a better shot then maybe they'd think twice. I don't think over here that there is any place for rifles,  we don't hunt like you guys do in the USA, but I think it is time we had a rethink on allowing people to own a handgun.

Well said. My perspective has taken a similar trajectory to yours. The older, wiser and more annoyed at humanity I get, the more hardened I've become in my outlook. That is good reason for being allowed to own a weapon. If these kids are going to harass law abiding citizens, and the police do nothing about it, citizens will take matters into their own hands, which unfortunately, is a sign that a society is decaying. The young guys are out of control and joining gangs in droves because they have no father figures. Absence of male authority, especially with boys, always leads to hyper aggressive behavior and reckless sexual behavior in both boys and girls. They need grown men to show them how a man carries himself, otherwise they default to primitive savage ways, as you described. I never had a father and as a teen, I myself was starting to mingle with aimless guys with no future. I was flunking out of school. Then my uncles, who are Vietnam veterans found out and holy shit did they straighten me out quick. Now I am a college grad with an office job, while the other guys are out of work and making babies that they cannot support. Western society is, and will continue paying a devastating price for mocking and reducing the importance of fathers to a joke. It's a direct cause, among many, of the gun violence in the USA.

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