Jump to content
Pete2304

So.....gun control

Recommended Posts

Egwalrus    590

If there is a situation where my life or property is in danger, having a firearm that is locked away is useless. If someone decides to break into my home, I am not going to take the time to unlock a gun safe, unlock a different container with the ammunition and then load the gun. I am going to be able to grab my weapon and be in a position to neutralize the threat.

It is a tool to protect myself, my family and my property. I have only had to draw a weapon and point it at a person twice in my life. One was when someone attempted to rob a business where I worked, and pulled a knife on a coworker. I drew my weapon and ordered the lowlife trash to drop the knife and lay on the ground. Fortunately for him, he chose to do so, and I was not forced to take his life. I was totally willing to do so if he continued to be a threat, but he realized that it was a bad idea to bring a knife to a gunfight.

The other case was someone who knocked on my door and when I did not answer, thought that my house was unoccupied so he broke in through a window. He was halfway in when I took a baseball bat to his back. He did not react well to that, and when he made a threat, he found a 9mm pointed at his forehead. The police arrived and after he got out of the hospital, (He had some injuries from "falling down when he tried to get away") he was charged and convicted, given a 25 year sentence.

In both cases, having a loaded and readily accessible firearm allowed me to protect myself and others.

I do not have small children in my household, and my wife is as good (or better) with firearms as I am. I do not have to worry about someone coming in and grabbing one of my weapons. but there is no place in my home where I am more than 8 feet away from a firearm

As to your bread example, if bread was made illegal, the criminals would still have the bacon sandwich, and the law abiding would not.

Murder is already against the law. Robbery is already against the law. Disarming law abiding citizens will do nothing to stop criminals, in fact it will just make it easier for them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

You are 8 times more likely to use a gun on yourself than on someone else, sadly that's a fact.

I'm afraid I don't feel that you have made a single compelling argument. You went with the constitution, but that didn't really work. Then you went with the I know more about different types of guns than you so you are wrong argument. And now we are down to if someone comes to shoot me I want to be able to shoot them first.

At no point have you been able to answer the points that the whole world besides a section of American society are making in that how can you not see there is a correlation between the number of massacres and murders and the ease of ability to acquire a gun.

I would just hope that of the many, many policeman in America who have to knock on doors and tell a distraught mother that her child won't be coming home from school today that most of those policeman answered "I wish I knew how it's possible for a 17 year old boy got hold of a gun and all I can hope is that your child's death will not be in vain and that the government does whatever it can to make sure that this will never happen in this country again".

Because any policeman who is trying to comfort a mother in that awful situation who can only offer "I am so so sorry for your loss ma'am but you know, it is in the constitution that we have the right to bear arms and with the greatest respect I do know more about guns than you do. But I certainly hope that your child's death won't be in vain and that as a result of this awful tragedy we make sure we arm more teachers and security guards".

Share this post


Link to post
Egwalrus    590

OK Pete,

We all get it. You do not like firearms, You do not know much about them, and do not care to learn, because you think that they are bad and evil. I do not see how disarming the law abiding will make them safer. You claim it is too easy for someone to get a gun without any knowledge of the requirements.

You live in a country where firearms are practically forbidden. You are not happy with just that, you want to somehow create an entire world that is disarmed.

I want you to consider the case of the Somali pirates. They were attacking commercial ships (knowing that these ships could not defend themselves) taking hostages and holding the ships for ransom. When the ship owners started having armed security on these ships, and they were able to fight back, the piracy problem became much smaller. Criminals and other evil people are not stupid (as a rule). They are going to look for easy targets. When the risk of the target being able to defend themselves is higher, the criminal will look for another target.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Scot_Lover    502

I still have an interest in the things, McMillan Tac 50 is something I drool over, but I just cant have one, lol. Girls don't like the things either, they were never exposed to them, growing up in Scotland. The Henry's .50 cal was an anti-social beast, had to recover brass and make my own cartridges, but it was good up to 400 meters, anything further, all bets were off. The .222 was able to skin and gut rabbits with remarkable ease, but the noise it made was frightful.

This bow I have, dragged it out today, has flat points on carbon fibre shafts, thunking these into a gum tree is easy, getting the things out again is an exercise in engineering. I think these things would go straight through an animal and the things are silent.

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

I totally agree without hesitation or argument that any commercial ship (especially those sailing in the waters off the East African coast) is in a better position to defend itself with armed guards on board. I am also more than happy to see armed police on the streets, as I am with armed Air Marshals on flights.

However the difference is, all these people have been vetted (beyond as long as you aren't a criminal and or have been declared mentally ill you can't have a gun) properly and trained for a considerable period of time before they are in charge of such weapons.

I honestly cannot possibly see what difference my knowledge of guns makes to my argument. If I go and read up and about the best available handguns on the market for a few days will that make my point any more valid?

Obviously we are never going to agree on this. Would I like to see a world where the only armed people are law enforcement? Yes, absolutely I would, and ideally not even them but whilst there is a threat of terrorism needs must.

One point you haven't been able to argue on though, is that if you just took the guns off the streets then you don't need one. Because the man breaking into your house won't be able to get hold of one. You mention black market but the problem is your black market is saturated but over time that would reduce. Start bringing in a minimum 2 year sentence and offer a weapons amnesty and it would stop. Is it ok with you that you have the higher rate of gun crime per head than my country, than Italy, Australia, Sweeden, China.....I could go on?

America has been doing it your way for a while now, turns out it isn't really working. The fact that even over the few days that this conversation has been going on two people have died because a man was upset about losing his job and yet you're ok with that. More collateral but worth it because the constitution says you can have guns, because look what happened to the Jews, because I don't know as much about guns as you and well because, basically you just like guns.

If they took all your guns away and kids stopped being shot at school would you campaign to bring them back?

Share this post


Link to post
Egwalrus    590

Pete,

What you fail to take into account is the simple fact that if you were to take all guns away, this would not stop the existence of firearms. You can actually make a working pistol using a 3d printer and the plans to do so were available on the internet for enough time that many people have saved them (even if they have no plans to use them currently) Using common wood and mental working tools (that you can find at any hardware or home center) and common materials, it would not be difficult to make an accurate, functional firearm.

You seem to believe that only government agents should be allowed to have firearms, because the average person cannot be trusted. Yesterday and today there were shootings in the Maryland Suburbs of Washington DC. The shooter was a Federal Police officer (Homeland Security) who shot and killed his estranged wife at a school (and wounded someone who tried to stop him) and who then shot several other people in different locations. The one thing that helped him was the fact that in Maryland it is very very hard to get a concealed carry permit, so no one was able to defend themselves .

If they attempt to take all my guns away, there would be no issue about me campaigning to get them back. The only way they will get them is by taking them from my cold dead hands. If you want to take my guns, you better bring yours, because I am not going down without a fight

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

You are losing your own argument with this point. Armed police officers here do not take their firearms home with them for a start so it wouldn't have happened.

As for making a firearm at home, when was the last time you heard of a massacre committed by someone who had made a gun using a 3d printer?

If you are insistent that you are happy to accept a ridiculously high rate of gun crime on the basis of it being your right to own a gun then good for you. I'm happier knowing that my child is less likely ( fact backed up by statistics) to ever be wheeled out of school in a body bag with a bullet in his head than he would be in America.

Whatever you say, there is no arguing against that. You've tried it your way for 200 years, maybe it's time to try it the other way, the rest of the civilised world did and hey presto, less gun crime.

Put it to a poll if you fancy, let's see who's made the more compelling argument?

Share this post


Link to post
Egwalrus    590

I do not need a poll. The fact is that in the United States, we have a right to keep and bear arms. If the rest of the world does not like that, oh well, too bad, so sad. I am not the one claiming that other countries should change, in my opinion they are free to do what they want. I am saying that We The People are not willing to give up our rights because some other country wants us to do so

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

You The People are, as you say well within you rights as it stands, to keep your guns. Thankfully someday, maybe not in your lifetime, maybe not in mine but the law will be changed. Just as you abolished slavery and prohibition, your gun laws will change.

A 200 year old law which was brought about in order to allow citizens to have muskets in case a tyrannical government needed to be overthrown is somewhat out of date. Good think about the musket, gave people a bit of time to think, not the quickest loading weapon in the world. Problem now is that the government has drones and laser guided missiles Etc etc so not sure how much difference a load of blokes shooting their rifles into the sky would make if the government did decide to turn against its own (which in itself is a ridiculous notion).

Anyways, we will obviously have to disagree, this can't go on forever. Pity you don't fancy the poll though, think we both know which way it would fall and since I'm guessing the majority of members on here are Anerican it would be me that's taking the gamble not you.

I've enjoyed the debate, it's been fun, passed a bit of time for a few evenings anyway. I'm sure in every respect you're a nice bloke, and please be assured none of this was in anyway personal, just the way I feel and it's something I feel really strongly about. I'm aware I'm not from the states but sadly most of us in whichever country we live in have witnessed awful events, I'm just glad my government made changes after Dunblane and likewise the Australian govt did and it's never happened again, touch wood, in a school, in either country.

I would say one thing though, it's not just other countries trying to effect a change, your own president (like him or not he was elected by your own voting system), agrees with me and 50 percent of the population who have had enough of the bloodshed.

But, like I said, this was never anything personal and I hope that if we chat on any other subject that will be taken on its merits. Feel free to give this post a dislike thumb, you have done on every single other one I've made, so might as well make it a full house. I haven't disliked all or in fact any of your responses because I feel it's not a problem that your opinion differs from mine. You haven't been abusive or disrespectful so I didn't feel the need to dislike your replies but again, we differ there.

Share this post


Link to post
Egwalrus    590

You claim that 50% of the population support banning firearms or at least restricting them. The fact is that gun sales are up, pro 2nd amendment candidates are winning and more and more states are passing constitutional carry (no permit needed) laws

Permits and licenses are when the government takes away your rights and sells them back to you

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

Ah bloody hell, I tried to be nice. Thanks for the dislike again, wouldn't have been the same if you hadn't.

So this whole constitution thing.....as I've mentioned, goodness knows how many times now, it's a 200 year old law. It was brought in at a time when governments were much less accountable and transparent. Officials were often poorly paid and because of the vastness of the country, easily corruptable when a poorly paid official was in charge of an area which was a weeks travel away from Washington. People carried muskets then. There were no phones, no internet etc etc. In theory, an Englishman can shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow as long as he is on the English side of the border and the arrow hits the Welshman on the Welsh side of the border. It's one of those silly laws that never got changed. Doesn't make it right.

Your point is in no way enhanced because those of you who like playing with guns have bought more of them. The very phrase pro 2nd amendment is in itself ludicrous, I wonder if there are any pro shoot a Welshman with a bow and arrow candidates knocking about here?

I truly wish you would come up with some facts to explain how your continued support of firearms results in less lives being lost than if firearms were handed in. You haven't, and I suspect can't. Off duty policeman (wouldn't have had his weapon whilst off duty in the UK) and an angry ex employee have shot and killed five people since this thread started. Number of civilian shootings here since this thread started....zero. But hey, you gotta have your guns right.

The sad thing is that deep down, you probably know I'm right. You're a staunch patriotist and I absolutely respect that. Although (and let's save this for another day), you're probably totally anti immigration as well with the irony being lost on you that unless you're of Native American descent, you're an immigrant too. I love my country as well and I'm deeply grateful for the fact that if we had a public vote tomorrow on whether or not we should allow any citizen without a criminal or mental health issue to own a firearm, the yes vote wouldn't even see half a percent.

Your go away rest of the world, it's my right attitude is all well and good, I'm a stubborn git too and when someone tells me I'm in the wrong I probably don't listen. But if the entire world told me I was wrong, might have to wonder if maybe they had a point.

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

I'd dislike my own post if could just to save you the bother but go ahead anyway

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

Anyways, I do now feel this has gone on long enough. I'm clearly 100 percent in the right and you're clearly wrong (I'm joking before you dive for the dislike button) so I suggest a virtual handshake and let's call this one a day. You have to understand that other people are going to have opinions on what happens in America because, if nothing else, with rolling news, social media, the ability to hop on a plane for a few hundred pounds/dollars and go to the other side of the globe, the world is becoming a smaller place in a way.

For the record, I have family in America (won't upset you by saying they are from Washington State and are democrats lol), my brother spent what he described as the best two months of his life touring the southern states last summer and I have nothing but admiration for the way in which you support your military, something we don't do well enough. When I was at Wembley last season watching the Jags/Bills game, I stood as your anthem was played. I'm just anti gun but that's my right but let's call it a day on this one fella.

Besides, I need to get on your good side so you can help me out with some spread picks when the football season starts again!

Share this post


Link to post
Egwalrus    590

You want to attack the basis of my country and say that because the Constitution has survived for over 227 years, is in your opinion, outdated. The simple fact is that while technology changes, rights do not. You seem to want to say that the 2nd amendment should only allow muskets. If you were to apply that logically, then the first amendment would only apply to printing presses that are operated by hand, and not to the internet. Freedom of the press would not apply to radio, TV or other media, but only to those hand printed items. Freedom of speech would only apply to someone standing in a public place, not to amplified speeches.

I am a realist. There is no way you are going to disarm everyone in the USA. You may be too young to remember, or at that point you did not pay attention to events in the USA, but it 1974 the Arabs tried to force the US to stop supporting Israel and they refused to sell oil to the US. In response to the shortages, the federal government imposed an national speed limit of 50 MPH. (later raised to 55) Prior to that, speed limits on US roads were set (in the majority of cases) based on safety. People obeyed the limit because of that fact.

Overnight, the speed limit changed and instead of being based on safety, it was a political choice. People who were able to safely drive on the road at 70MPH yesterday were told that they had to limit their speed to 55 MPH. This caused a major change in the attitude of the public. Prior to the change, speeding was considered to be a bad, reckless act. After the government imposed the change, the attitude of the public also changed. CB radios (formerly mostly used by truckers) became very popular, and the location of the police was broadcast to warn drivers. Movies like Smokey and The Bandit, Gumball Rally and Cannonball run were popular, and the police went from being respected for keeping the roads safe to being someone to avoid, because they are just collecting money. Speed limits, even in areas where they are based on safety now, are routinely ignored

My point is that they can try to outlaw firearms, but there is no way to disarm everyone. The criminals are not going to give up their guns, any more than they will obey a "gun free zone" sign. A percentage of the normally law abiding will also not be willing to give up their guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Egwalrus    590

I love how you want to make your final statement (of opinion that you claim is fact) and then want to end the conversation. I do not know if you have ever dealt with deaf people. One of the funniest things I have seen was two deaf men (or at least one was deaf) having a heated discussion using sign language. One got frustrated with the other and closed his eyes. I see this same thing happening here

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

Right well I will call time on this one. Final statement is yours. Our opinions are so far apart there's never going to be a middle ground. Debate was had, no harm done but that's an end to it.

Have to wonder though.....when Hilary comes to power and she carries on with Obama's pledge to ban guns.....I'm joking, let's just call this a draw and move on with our lives.

Share this post


Link to post
Scot_Lover    502

This reminds me of a weird one on Freenode (IRC), some guy was lamenting the fact the he couldn't go on holiday overseas. When he was asked why, his reply was that he and his wife couldn't take their guns. He got so much flak in the channel he just up and left, discussion in channel went on for a while until a mod got it back on topic. This has been an interesting thread, thanks guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

You see, I laughed. Then I sat there and thought, actually I have honestly no idea if this is satirical or not!!

Share this post


Link to post
Pete2304    34

Well I suppose in their defence, they do say don't let children use the product. Health and safety in mind at all times.

Share this post


Link to post
Egwalrus    590

While the company making this may have gone out of business, there are many ways to have an accessible firearm while you are in bed. I know that I can have a firearm in my hand ready to go in about 2 seconds while I am in bed, and if you were to look for it you would have a hard time locating it.

Share this post


Link to post
lordofcoatham1    104

guns are not difficult to aquire in the uk, as long as you pass the requirements for a shotgun licence or firearms certifcate, I got to play with my friends mossberg pump action shotgun at a shoot last month, it was fun and they have their place, and i think on reflection the pistol withdrawel was too hasty and should have had further restrictions on them instead of an outright ban, but i agree they should be locked up in the home, im pretty sure i would have a string of accidentally massacred pets and a bullet lodged in my foot if i had a gun in my bedsode table. But i dont have any need of one, gun crime is so rare that my local police force shares an armed response unit with the next county and can mabes field 6 armed offieers at any one given time and even then spend most of their time on traffic duty so the money i saved on a pistol i spent on decent doors and windows Its also not illegal to carry a knife, i cary a swiss champ on me at all times and often a machte (soon to be upgrded to a kukrhi) at work.

Share this post


Link to post
steve25805    32,902

People here do quite often "arm" themselves against any potential intruder, with a weapon to hand somewhere nearby, especially when sleeping.

But the weapon of choice lying to hand tends to be something like a baseball bat rather than a gun.

If some nutter were to steal their baseball bat, they might possibly be able to do a lot of damage to anyone they could get up close and personal with, but they'd never pull off a Columbine style massacre with one.

Share this post


Link to post
Scot_Lover    502

Laws (or lawyers) suck here, if you beat up an intruder, you are the bad guy, several people are in prison for defending themselves, mostly from drugged up "ice" addicts. Another thing that sucks is that if someone does get in, and trips over shoes on the floor, you can get sued millions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
lordofcoatham1    104

I keep a maglite 6d under my bed, but i need to get the led conversion, it used to be cutting edge in terms of brightness but is out performed by an led torch from the pound shop, but it is still bright enough to disorientate someone and hefty enough to belt them with. the laws here are getting better in regards to defending your home since the tony martin case a few years ago (he is a farmer who shot 2 burglers killing one, but he was using an illegally held shotgun) there have been a few cases recently where homeowners have had no charges brought against them for killing an intruder.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×